Faith & Hope in the Midst of Tragedy & Medical Trauma: Kassy's Story | Healing Heroines

For our first Healing Heroines conversation of 2026, Kassy shares her painful experience of pregnancy loss and her own medical trauma in a state with some of the most restrictive pregnancy laws in the U.S.

Kassy recounts navigating the aftermath of this tragedy and how finding Hero and Rev. Lizzie, along with Jubilee church during the pandemic, helped reconnect her to a faith spacious enough to hold anger, silence, and unanswered questions.

What You Will Learn

• [00:07:52] The legal and medical context that shaped Kassy’s hospital experience and limited clinical intervention during her pregnancy
• [00:22:49] What it felt like when physical pain signaled her body shutting down rather than going into labor
• [00:36:58] How pregnancy loss disrupted Kassy’s relationship with her body and sense of bodily ownership
• [00:38:11] The tension of loving a body while simultaneously feeling betrayed by it
• [00:43:40] How choosing faith as an adult differed from using religion as a last resort during crisis
• [00:44:31] What it meant for faith to feel reciprocal—something that reached back instead of remaining one-sided
• [00:50:35] How Rev. Lizzie supported Kassy by walking alongside her without explaining or fixing the trauma
• [01:05:01] Why anger, grief, and yelling at God can be part of an honest spiritual life after trauma

Resources Mentioned

• God Didn’t Make Us to Hate Us by Rev. Lizzie McManus-Dail

Let’s Connect!

Rev. Lizzie MacManus-Dail

Website | Instagram | TikTok | YouTube

Chandler Stroud

Website: https://healingheroespodcast.com/

Mixing, editing, and show notes provided by Next Day Podcast.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Chandler Stroud: Hey guys, it's Chandler, and welcome to The Healing Heroes. I promise you.

[00:00:08] I'm Chandler Stroud, an executive wife and busy mom of two who after years of living with anxiety health struggles and an unshakeable feeling like I should be happier, made a profound discovery that changed everything. Join me on a journey where unexpected paths lead to healing and more happiness. On this show, we will explore unconventional ways to unlock more joy in your own life.

[00:00:38] With the help of my very own healers and trusted advisors, the healing heroes.

[00:00:49] Hey everyone, and welcome back to the Healing Heroes Podcast. I'm your host Chandler, and I'm so grateful that you're here with us today. I'm joined by two incredible women, Cassie and her dear friend, also a hero on the show, Reverend Lizzie. Today we're gonna be exploring a very personal and profound experience.

[00:01:14] Cassie has bravely decided to share in hopes that it might help some of our listeners. We'll also hear from Hero and Reverend Lizzie McManus Dale, who walked beside her during that trying time, both as her friend and as her priest. Before we get to Cassie's story, I wanna start the way we always do when a healing heroine joins us on the show by sharing a bit more context and background on our guests, and most importantly, what's bringing us joy First, Cassie Arradondo is a 3-year-old mom and wife residing in Brownsville, Texas.

[00:01:54] Cassie loves to read and talk books with whoever is down to discuss and is currently expecting her third child this August. We're so excited for you, Cassie. Next, I'd love to take a moment to introduce Lizzie for any new listeners joining us today. Lizzie has lived all over the world with her boots now rooted in Austin, Texas, where she is living her dream.

[00:02:17] As the founder of Jubilee Episcopal Church, she is passionate about evangelism for a God who makes each of us for joy, which is why you might see her doing silly dances and talking about church history on Instagram and TikTok with her now over 100,000 followers. Lizzie is a second generation clergy woman, and she delights in talking about motherhood, pregnancy, and reproductive justice.

[00:02:43] From this lens of faith and leadership in the church and brought a passion for feminism and queer theology to her studies at Duke Divinity School, she also recently authored the book God Didn't Make Us To Hate Us, A collection of 40 devotionals to liberate your faith from fear and reconnect with joy, which I can't recommend highly enough to everyone listening.

[00:03:08] Lizzie. Cassie, thank you so much, both of you for being here today. 

[00:03:13] Kassy: Thank you for having us. 

[00:03:14] Lizzie: Oh my gosh. It's always a joy and an honor to be with you and Wow, I'm really, really excited for this conversation today. 

[00:03:22] Chandler Stroud: Me too, Lizzie, and I'm so grateful to you, Cassie, for joining us. This is gonna be great, and I always love connecting with like-minded spiritual women.

[00:03:33] So before we get into it, you know, I always love to begin with light warmup questions, and I'm gonna start with you today, Lizzie, what's one word that describes the season you're in right now and why? 

[00:03:48] Lizzie: So, I'm gonna say present and I'll say present for the dbla entendre. The the double meaning of I am literally sitting next to a pile of presents to be wrapped because when we're recording this, it's advent.

[00:04:02] It's, I'm like in the throes of motherhood of two, getting ready for Christmas. But of course advent is also a pretty busy time for me as an Episcopal priest. And I, I just have I find. Yeah, there's often a temptation in the busyness of life to not feel very present, right? Like to, to be worrying about what is coming, to be fretting over what has not gotten done.

[00:04:26] But I have just felt really grateful to be very here in this season. And and sometimes being here is a little hard because it's a lot and it's it's a tender time to have your heart open to the world. But I feel very present and I feel very present with y'all right now and I'm just really thankful for that.

[00:04:45] Chandler Stroud: So beautifully said, Lizzie, thank you for sharing that and right back at you. I feel very present with both of you here today as well, so thanks for that gift. It is hard during the holiday season especially. 

[00:04:58] Lizzie: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:04:59] Chandler Stroud: Really. And when you're a mom, 

[00:05:04] Lizzie: my daughter did throw me throw, she threw me the little boomerang.

[00:05:06] She we saw Santa at the Austin Gay Men's Chorus concert a few weeks ago, and she went up to him and said, I'm getting a mermaid dress for Christmas. And I said, oh, oh, 

[00:05:17] Chandler Stroud: you are, 

[00:05:18] Lizzie: you are now whip out the phone. 

[00:05:21] Chandler Stroud: Thank you. Amazon. Amazing. That's great. I can't please send pictures of said mermaid costume after Christmas.

[00:05:30] Lizzie: Oh, absolutely. I absolutely will. 

[00:05:31] Chandler Stroud: Thank you. 

[00:05:32] Kassy: And we'll say 

[00:05:33] Chandler Stroud: Good job 

[00:05:33] Kassy: Santa. 

[00:05:34] Lizzie: Yeah. 

[00:05:35] Chandler Stroud: Yeah. Right. I mean, thank you Santa. Good thing you know. Right. Cassie, what's one thing bringing you joy this week? 

[00:05:45] Kassy: That it is almost time for Christmas vacation. 

[00:05:49] Lizzie: Mm. 

[00:05:50] Kassy: I very, I'm very family centric. I, if I could spend every single day with my parents and my siblings, my husband and Ellie, I'm set for life and they work.

[00:06:05] Can you believe that they work and they don't hang out with me all day while I'm at home. 

[00:06:11] Chandler Stroud: The injustice. 

[00:06:12] Kassy: Yeah. So very excited for their time off so that we can go spend time with them. And I'm pretty sure Ellie is too 'cause she just wants to see Mimi and grandpa all the time. But that's what's bringing me joy right now.

[00:06:27] That maybe not joy but I'm anticipating that excitement, that warmth, that. Hot cocoa while we watch the Grinch and nobody has to go home early 'cause they work the next day. Or I am like not worried about like, Hey Ellie, let's not bother grandpa because you know, he has to go to sleep or whatever. So that, that anticipation is where I'm at right now.

[00:06:55] It's where the joy is. Right? 'cause I'm waiting 

[00:06:58] Chandler Stroud: very appropriate as we are deep in advent season. Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:02] Kassy: Yeah. I'm doing my own kind of waiting on the side. 

[00:07:07] Lizzie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:07:07] Chandler Stroud: I love that, Cassie. And I think it helps you with what Lizzie was referring to that presence also, right? I mean, that's so great that you get to have all of these like exciting traditions and just small moments to look forward to this holiday season.

[00:07:24] That's great. Before we step into the heart of today's conversation, I do want to offer a gentle content note for our listeners. This next part of the episode includes discussion of pregnancy loss and medically complex situations. Please take care of yourself as you listen. I also wanna share one important piece of context so that Cassie doesn't have the responsibility of explaining the legal landscape in her home state of Texas.

[00:07:52] At the time, Cassie's story unfolded, Texas had enacted what's known as the Heartbeat Law. Under this law, medical providers are prohibited from intervening in certain pregnancy related emergencies as long as fetal cardiac activity is detected. Even in situations where a pregnancy is not expected to make it to term or where delays in care increase the medical risk to the mother, providers are only legally permitted to act once a patient meets a very narrow definition of a medical emergency.

[00:08:29] So hopefully that context will help listeners as you follow along, while Cassie shares her story, I'm simply sharing that framework so that everyone understands the constraints that existed for the physicians that day, not to interpret or narrate what happened. And the rest of this is Cassie's story in her own words.

[00:08:51] So with that, Cassie. Can you take us back in time and share what happened in your own words to the extent you're comfortable doing so? 

[00:09:05] Kassy: Yeah, so I was 28 when we found out that we were pregnant with our first child. She ended up being a girl and Anthony had gone to the, Anthony, my husband had gone to the store to buy Ben and Jerry's Half Baked, 'cause I wanted to do a cute, like half baked photo shoot.

[00:09:28] I love that. And so he went to the store ahead of time and I remember that day it was May 30th. I wasn't feeling too hot, so I said, Hey, no, we'll do it tomorrow. Like when I'm feeling better. When I look prettier, we'll do it tomorrow, it's fine. So we got ready for bed. We were watching a movie. And I said, you know what?

[00:09:51] I really need to use the restroom. And so I got up and when I took a step out of our bed, I ended up sneezing and my water broke. And I didn't know at the time that it was my water. I thought I just, I did the restroom. So I said, oh no. And I was waddling to like the toilet. 'cause I thought I was still using it and it didn't stop.

[00:10:16] And I remember telling Anthony, I said, Hey, I, I don't think I'm using the restroom. Like, I think this is my water. And he's like, that doesn't make sense. You're only 20 weeks. And I said, I know should we call an ambulance? Should we wait? Should we go to the hospital? At this point, it was, I believe around midnight.

[00:10:37] It was around midnight. And he said, I, I don't wanna transport you. Like, let's wait till it stops and then we leave. And I said, okay. So he quickly Google searched and he said, okay, Google is telling me that you need to lay down with your feet up. Don't put any pressure on anything. I'm trying to get your doctor on the line so we can ask him what to do.

[00:10:55] And I said, okay. So I was laying down and then it ended up being 1 45 and I said, Hey, I think we just need to go to the hospital. Like this isn't stopping. I don't know what's going on. So he said, okay. So we got in the car and we went over. At the time we were living in San Beto, so we were 15 minutes away from either hospital, either way.

[00:11:17] There's one in Harlingen and then there's one in Brownsville. He said, I think with traffic, Harlingen is closer. So I said, okay, let's go to that one. We get there, we get checked in, I go straight over to the maternity ward because I'm pregnant, they don't see you in their emergency room. And the nurse was like, are you sure your water broke?

[00:11:34] Maybe you just peed. And I said, no, it was going on for a really long time. At first I thought I peed, but I don't think so. And she said, okay take off your underwear. We're gonna have to keep it 'cause we need to test to see if it is amniotic fluid that you're leaking. And I said, okay. So I changed. At this point I was by myself.

[00:11:53] They had taken away all my things. Anthony was outside. I didn't know what was going on. And I didn't get to see the doctor till shift change at 7:00 AM So I was just in a bed. Just there they didn't let Anthony in. I didn't have my phone. I finally had to ask a nurse like, Hey, can you please bring my phone?

[00:12:13] It's been like two hours. Nobody knows what's going on with me. I don't know what's going on with me. Jesus. And she was like, well, we normally don't allow patients to have your phone. I said, okay, great. Then bring my husband in. Like it's either my phone or my husband. And she's like, okay, let me give you your phone.

[00:12:31] And so I grabbed my phone and I said, Hey, nobody's telling me anything. I dunno what's going on. I'm here by myself. Like there's nobody else in the unit. And he was like, okay, let me go see what I can do on my end. And they just kept giving him the runaround. They were like, Hey, your wife's fine. Don't worry about it.

[00:12:44] And he's said, okay, but how's my wife and the baby? And they're like, oh, the doctor's coming in soon. It's okay, sir. And he's like, okay, can I go see her? And they kept saying, no, you can't. No you can't. So then around 6 45, they moved me over to another room, like an individual room, and they finally let Anthony in.

[00:13:06] Anthony had called my parents, so my mom also walked in with Anthony and I said, oh my God, thank God you're here. I don't know what's going on. And the nurse was like, oh, the doctor's coming in right now. And I said, okay. So the doctor came in. Who was the ob? GYN. He also brought in a nicu. Pediatrician. Yeah, a NICU doctor.

[00:13:30] And he brought in, I don't remember her title. I don't know if it was like a social worker. I have no idea. But those are three people who stepped into the room and he said long story short, your water did break and your baby's not viable, so there's nothing we can do. And I said, what do you mean non-viable?

[00:13:55] And he's like, oh she's gonna die. Like there's nothing we can do about it. I brought over the NICU pediatrician so she can talk to you about her team who would normally be able to step in, but can't. And I said, what do you mean you would normally be able to step in, but you can't? And she said, viability in a fetus is 22 weeks.

[00:14:20] I said, okay. She said, I don't think you're gonna make it the two weeks for her to be viable because of the amount of fluid that you are leaking. And I said, okay, well, does she still have fluid in there? Like what? What are our chances? What, what are we doing? What's the point of action? And she said, I'm not your doctor, so I can't tell you anything.

[00:14:42] I could just tell you to rest. And I said, okay. And then she turned around and she left. And then the ob, GYN, who stayed there was like, Hey, so I'm gonna take some blood. We're gonna run some more tests and then we'll see if we can come up with a plan. And then he turned and he walked out and I said should we have gone to the other hospital?

[00:15:04] And Anthony was like, well, no, this one is closer. Like, I don't know, maybe he doesn't know anything and that's why he didn't give us more info. And I said, okay. So he comes back in an hour later and he said, Hey, we ran all the tests. There's no hope. Like I think I'm just gonna discharge you. You go home and you're either gonna pass her naturally or you're gonna have a fever.

[00:15:28] And I said what? And he's like, yeah I'm sorry, but that's just the way it goes. I'm gonna have the nurse bring the discharge papers and then you can go ahead and go home. And he walked out and that was it. And I said, what do we do now? And Anthony was like, I don't know. And my mom was like, okay, well let's get you discharged and then we'll go eat something and then figure out.

[00:15:55] And I said, okay. So then we went home and we did our thing. By the time that we actually got home, home, it was about 11:00 AM. And my parents were like, okay, we're gonna go home to get some rest. I didn't know that Anthony had called them right when I went in to be seen. So they had been at the hospital also all night with Anthony.

[00:16:19] So he was like, we're gonna go rest and then we'll see you in a little while. And I said, okay. And Anthony and I took a nap. I think it was a shock. I think we were also exhausted. I woke up and I had a fever and I said, okay, I, we have to go to the hospital. But this time we went to the one in Brownsville, which is where my doctor was.

[00:16:42] And again, I did the whole thing. And I, I think in order to work at a hospital, you need a lot of grace about you. And there is some people who either don't have the ability or, just let the emotions get the better of them. But I was doing the intake form for the other hospital and I said, Hey, my water broke yesterday at around this time. And she said, then why are you barely showing up? Why are you barely showing up right now? And I said, I went to another hospital in Harlan, Jen.

[00:17:21] They saw me all night and they checked me out and they said that I'm good to stay at home unless I got a fever. I said, I had a fever. And I came straight here and she's like, Ugh, these young mothers nowadays, why didn't you lead with that? And I said, I'm filling out the form right now. Like I don't, I don't know what to tell you.

[00:17:41] And she said, okay, go sit down and I'll call you when I need to take your weight and when I need to hook you up to the sonogram machine. And I said, okay. So then we did the intake. I finally have a bed. I'm hooked up to the sonogram and the doctor comes in and he says, Hey, I read your report from the other hospital.

[00:18:03] And unfortunately they're right. And he goes, right now your daughter has enough fluid that she'll survive, but we don't know if she'll make it the two weeks for viability. And I said, okay. 'Cause he said, if, if she's born right now, at most, I think she'll live like an hour or two. And I said, okay. He's like, I'm gonna check how dilated you are and where your body is in labor.

[00:18:30] And I only dilated four centimeters and that's where I stayed the entire time that I was in the hospital. I was four steady. So then that's when he said, okay, good news, bad news. The good news is she's still very much alive. He's still very much. Have hope in your pregnancy. The bad news is we cannot do anything to you until she's either born naturally or you get an infection or you manage to hold her in for the two weeks and then we can induce you.

[00:19:07] And I said, okay, because he said, your body's stalled, so there's nothing I can do to help you. And sure enough, I stayed stalled, my body halted the labor. Nothing was moving anymore. And so then that's when a social worker came in and was like, okay, Texas has the heartbeat bill. And so we legally cannot touch you.

[00:19:29] We cannot offer you anything but pain meds as we go through this. I was speechless. I didn't know what to say to that. And so Anthony was asking clarifying questions and she just said, we cannot touch you. Until your baby dies or you get an infection and are about to die. And so that's when kind of everything started, like the guilt, the exhaustion, the hoping, but not really hoping.

[00:20:04] It was more like a realistic hope where every two hours they would come in, they would check for her heartbeat, and they'd say, sorry, mom, her heart's still beating. There's nothing we can do. And then they'd leave and then they'd come back another two hours and she's still breathing. And so I say guilt because there was a moment where I would be hoping like, okay, maybe, maybe she already went to sleep, she passed away, right?

[00:20:35] And I'll be able to get her out of me. We'll be fine. And then. The other side of me was like, well, no. Like, who wants their baby to die? Who wants to be hoping that there's no heartbeat when they come check? And so I was very, very torn and I'm still torn to this day, right? 'cause that's a mother shouldn't hope that she doesn't hear it.

[00:21:01] And it, yeah, it was horrible. I was there for a week with Amelia inside me, so it was every two hours. Again, again, heartbeat, heartbeat, heartbeat. On June the second they came, they did their check. It was a little bit before midnight and they said, okay, mom, we're not gonna see you till two 30. And I said, okay.

[00:21:29] And they said, try to get some rest. And I said, okay. And so then they left. I remember before when visitor hours was still going on, my dad was like, Hey, do you need anything before I leave, before I come back tomorrow? And I said, dad, I'm, I'm cold. Can you please gimme a blanket? And he said, yeah say gimme a blanket.

[00:21:50] So I had a big thick one and then the two that the hospital gives you and then he left. And so I'm sleeping and I wake up Anthony 'cause he is sleeping next to me. So Anthony was laying down next to me and I woke him up and I said, babe, I'm freezing. And he goes, what do you mean you're freezing? It's hot.

[00:22:14] He had like taken off his blankets and I said, no, I'm really cold. Like I'm shaking. My teeth are shattering. And he's like lemme call a nurse. And I said, why are you calling a nurse? Like, I'm just really cold. And he said lemme call a nurse. Don't worry about it. I'll be right back. So he left to call a nurse.

[00:22:30] And I only know that this happened because Anthony told me. 'cause I don't remember anything. I just remember him leaving to go get a nurse. Mm-hmm. And I woke up, or like I came to, I guess when I got moved into delivery. 

[00:22:49] Lizzie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:22:51] Kassy: And I was like on the cusp of birthing Amelia. But apparently the nurse came in and I had 105 fever and my blood pressure was really, really low.

[00:23:02] And I like threw up all over the place. I like, I couldn't walk, but they were trying to get me to walk and Anthony was like, no, she needs a wheelchair. Like she, she shouldn't even be standing up. So they brought in a wheelchair, I got in. So we got to the delivery ward and again, they could not touch me 'cause she still had a heartbeat.

[00:23:27] And so I was as throwing up. I was in so much pain. I remember like begging the nurse for something. I said, please, please, like everything hurts. Like I don't, I don't understand. And you know, when you're first pregnant, you Google everything and you're like, how do contractions feel? How does labor? It did not compare to what I was feeling at the time.

[00:23:55] I was not aware that I wasn't actually labor pains. It was my body shutting down. That's what was hurting. Everything was just slowly turning off and that was causing pain. Like my teeth were chattering 'cause I was in so much pain. And they were like, I can only give you half a dose and even that is too much because I, I legally cannot help you.

[00:24:19] And I said, but I'm in so much pain. Like, I dunno what to do. I dunno what to do. And she said, I, I'll be right back. Let me go see. So she gave me half a dose. And I had, I had told Anthony if there's ever a point when I'm in labor and it looks like I am not gonna make it, only calm my parents, I don't want my brother and my sister to see me like that.

[00:24:46] I just need you to call my parents. And he said, okay. And so at that point was when he called my parents and he said, Hey, there's something going on with Cassie. It, it doesn't look good. Like you guys need to make it over here. And my parents were still working at the time, and so they just dropped what they were doing and they left.

[00:25:06] So they got to the hospital and they were like, we're here to see Cassandra. And they're like, oh, I'm sorry ma'am. You can't go in, like you need to wait. So my parents just texted and they're like, Hey, we're in the waiting room. They're not letting us in. And he said, okay, I'll update you as I know more.

[00:25:19] And I'm just screaming in bed at this point, and Anthony's like, baby, there's, there's nothing I can do. Like I'm, I, I dunno what to do. I, I blanked out. I came to at maybe 7 45, 8, yeah, 7 45, 7 50. And I said, Hey, I really need to use the restroom. And he's like, okay, let me call the nurse. And so he called the nurse and I said, I really, I, I need to poop.

[00:25:49] And she's like, wait, don't push 'cause that could be your baby. I said, what, what do you mean? And she's like, let me check. And so she checked and she said, okay, I see your baby's head. Like, please don't push. 'cause I had a bedpan under me. So she's like, don't push, let me take this out. And so she took it out and she said, okay, now you can push.

[00:26:08] And so I pushed her out at 8:00 AM We think that she. Suffocated and passed away around the time that I blacked out, like when I was in so much pain that everything was cramping up. We think that that's when it happened and they took her away immediately. 'cause they were gonna check. 'cause I, I needed answers.

[00:26:33] It's what I had told the doctor. I said, if I birth her naturally, I need to find out where it went wrong. And he's like, okay, I'll take a look at her. I'll take a look at your placenta and kind of try to piece something together. And I said, okay. So he took her away and then another doctor came in and he said, Hey, I am not an OB GYNI am.

[00:27:01] I forgot his title. And he said, you are going into septic shock. Everything that could go wrong is going wrong, so we need to actually move you to the ICU. And so I got moved over and during that time they took like several vials of blood and they said, okay, she passed away inside of you and your body didn't remove her on time 'cause she still stayed.

[00:27:34] And so she was, there was an infection that got into my bloodstream and everything kind of just went downhill from there. And so he said, we need to give you really strong antibiotics and see if we can turn this around. So I was in the ICU for another week after that, just getting antibiotics. We had sent.

[00:28:00] Amelia off to go get cremated. And it's crazy to me how unprepared we were for this, because we had her, well, before I got into the ICUI was able to see Amelia for a little bit, and my parents came in to see her. My, my in-laws also came in to see her. They asked me like, okay, well what are we gonna do with her?

[00:28:28] Like, where do we send her? Where do you have a contract? And I said, oh, what do you mean? Like, I, I knew in my heart she wasn't going to survive. I didn't think. What was the next step? Right. And so in my 28 years of life, right, birthing my first baby, I looked to my parents and I said, what, what do I do? And they said, okay, we'll call around.

[00:28:57] We'll see. And we'll just, we'll tell them. And so thankfully my parents took care of that. It was like something I, I didn't have to do 'cause I wouldn't have even known where to start. So we got moved to the ICU and I was still very much in and out of it. And like the, ugh, the nightmares that I had were crazy.

[00:29:22] I was waking up and my parents, Anthony, my mother-in-law, I all kind of sat vigil while I was in and out. And I just, I would wake up and I'd be like, where's Amelia? Like, where's my baby? And so they'd have to be like, Hey. You, you birthed her, right? She's in the funeral home, like, it's okay. And so then I'd calm down and it was like a cycle.

[00:29:47] Like I'd wake up again and I'd be like, where, where? Where's my baby? And like, I still had the stomach. I was, I was 20 weeks pregnant. And again, I wish medical professionals would read folders. 'cause the first nurse that I had was like, okay, I need you to lift your body up 'cause I need to check your private areas to see that you're good, that you don't have an infection.

[00:30:11] I said, okay. And so like, I lifted my body up and she said, oh my god, mommy, you don't even look like you just had a baby. Like, you're so God. And I was like, thank you.

[00:30:27] I said, thank you so much. And prop props to her. I think she did what she had to do. She left, she read my file and she came back with flowers and chocolate and said. I put my foot in my mouth and I'm so sorry. 

[00:30:45] Lizzie: Oh. 

[00:30:45] Kassy: And I said, that's okay. You gave me the laugh that I needed because I did, I did laugh when she was like, oh my god, mama.

[00:30:54] I said, I, I have a little bit of dark morbid sense of humor, so that made me laugh. I told Anthony, 'cause Anthony wasn't there. I think my mom was there. So when Anthony came back, like they switched, I said, you'll never believe what happened. And so I told him and he said, Jesus. And he said, I know. I said, but she came to see, sorry.

[00:31:13] And she bought really good chocolate. And so like, I guess after that she like went to the ICU circle and was like, Hey, she lost her baby. Like, don't go in there with a lot of enthusiasm. 'cause everybody was kind of like, Hey. Hey, miss Casandra, and I said, hi guys. I, I'm good. Like I'm a little traumatized, but I'm still fine.

[00:31:40] Jesus. Yeah, I know. You have to laugh or you'll cry. And so that was my week at ICU and then on Monday of the week of the week past, sorry, we're about to make it to three weeks in the hospital. So the Monday after the funeral home called me and told me that Amelia was ready to be picked up. And so I said, I am, I'm in the hospital.

[00:32:07] And so she's like, okay, well we can hold her here, but it'd be really nice if you or your husband would come like today or tomorrow so you can sign the paperwork. 'cause we can't release her without paperwork. And so I remember begging the hospital like, can I just have a day pass? Like, let me just go pick her up and I'll come right back.

[00:32:26] And they were like, we can't, you're an, you're on antibiotics, like you haven't been fever free. And so then the doctor was like, okay, here's what we can do. 'cause I understand that you need to go. He said, if you are fever free up until tomorrow at 7:30 AM you'll be released as far as your antibiotics go, you'll get a PICC line through your arm.

[00:32:51] And so it's a little port. They still have the scar and it goes in through your body, up your shoulder, and then like into your heart or like around your heart, the most direct path. And they shoot antibiotics through there. Your infection has to be really, really bad to get this. 'cause other than that, like you'll stick to like tablets or whatever.

[00:33:12] Lizzie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:13] Kassy: And so he goes, you'll see an outpatient facility for another two weeks to still get antibiotics and a flush, but that's the only way I can let you outta here. And I said, okay, okay. That sounds like a deal. Like I need to pick up my daughter. So thankfully I was fever free, so I got discharged. And then we went immediately to the funeral home where we had to sign some paperwork.

[00:33:41] And that was the first time that I signed my name under mom. I, I know I cried when I saw that I was doing, I was doing well. And then when we pulled up, we did the contract I was citing her name, like her facts of Life. And then at the bottom it said like, signature and then relationship to, to the deceased.

[00:34:09] And so I had to put Mother on there and Anthony had to put Father. And I was like, this is the first time that we've signed like this. He said, I'm gonna file this for later. I can't, I don't have the bandwidth right now. And so then we picked up my baby and we took her to my parents' house. 'cause we ended up moving in with my parents for a little bit.

[00:34:33] 'cause I needed a lot of help. I brought her home and I cried so much. And I was telling my mom, I said, this isn't how I wanted to bring her home. And she's like, I know, but it happened. And. Yeah, the week, the two weeks with that antibiotic, going to that outpatient clinic was a blur. I think I spent it crying, sleeping.

[00:35:02] That was, that was it. 

[00:35:05] Chandler Stroud: Cassie, I, I'm gonna try not to cry when I say this. I first wanna say thank you for sharing all of that with us. My entire body was like vibrating while you were talking. My heart was like pounding out my chest. I'm just so sorry that you experienced that and no mother should have to go through what you've gone through.

[00:35:36] So I wanna say that I. I don't think anything I can say right now will accurately depict the fury I feel in my body for you and what you went through physically during that hospital stay and as you were trying to do what was best for you and your baby. And then I think I just want you to know how in awe I am of you and your strength and your resilience and your ability to find that moment of levity in the ICU and your ability to sign those papers and pick up your daughter and cry and sleep and do what you had to do and get one foot in front of the other in the weeks that followed that.

[00:36:20] Not everyone could have done that, and I really want you to hear that because I am just so in awe of you and what you've had to navigate and overcome. So. Just thank you for sharing all of that. And again, I'm just, I'm really sorry for all of it. I really am. Thank you. I remember when you and I first met and you were reflecting on that experience with me, and you said that your body stopped feeling like it was yours.

[00:36:58] Can you say a bit more about that and how you were feeling during that time? 

[00:37:04] Kassy: It's that feeling every mom goes through when they realize that they're pregnant. It's this body is yours, it's theirs at that point in time, and when I went to the hospital and they said that we would just have to wait it out, at that point, I feel like it stopped being mine.

[00:37:32] It wasn't, it wasn't doing what I was begging it to do, which was keep it together. Right? We have a, we have a baby. We have to keep it together. And it, let me backtrack it, it did keep it together, right? We were in limbo for that whole week. It, it, it did its job too. Well, it was this weird feeling, this weird balance of my body belonging to me while simultaneously not belonging at all.

[00:38:11] It's this, it's this weird, weird feeling because you see it everywhere, right? My body is yours and my body was your first home and the first place that you could always come back to. And at, at this point in time. It was terrible. I, I remember being so, so mad at it. 

[00:38:35] Lizzie: Yeah. 

[00:38:35] Kassy: And that, I think that that was also the difficult part.

[00:38:40] 'cause I loved my body. 

[00:38:43] Lizzie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:43] Kassy: I, we were together years. Right. And as a big girl, you go through extra lessons to learn how to love your body. 

[00:38:51] Lizzie: Amen. 

[00:38:52] Kassy: And yeah. And it got me here and it got me my baby, and we were doing so good. And then all of a sudden it stopped. Yeah. And I remember I was, 'cause the therapist, 'cause the hospital also did a therapist in there, the first visit.

[00:39:10] And then before I got checked out was when I saw the therapist. And so she's like, what if you talk to your body, like maybe that'll like center you again and it'll, it'll help you process what's going on. And I said, okay. And so I was like, dude, you kept it together enough to get pregnant. We are doing so good.

[00:39:33] You lost it and our water broke. And then you, you just stopped. I said, please decide. Are we keeping her? Are we birthing her? But I, I need a quick decision. I can't be in this limbo. And it was tough. It's still tough. 

[00:39:54] Chandler Stroud: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:39:55] Kassy: I, I did it with, with Elizabeth and we made it through. I saw it through, and now with this baby, this body is ours.

[00:40:06] I'm trusting it to do what it was meant to do. Right. Keep it together until the baby's born. And I think that's the hard part. It's the trust and that's what broke 'cause. Everybody says it's the most natural thing in the world. Your body knows what it's like to be pregnant. Your body knows what it's like to keep it and just trust your body, listen to your body.

[00:40:32] And I just remember thinking like, okay, this is where I'm at. This is the place that I find myself and I don't know how to get back something that was so innate. And second nature, I don't know how to get back to myself. I don't know how to trust this space again. 'cause being pregnant and being a mom is being very vulnerable and you will never find another situation where you're that vulnerable.

[00:41:10] You know, I did the therapy, I did the praying, and so I came back into my body. I stepped into it and I said, all right, let's figure out where we stopped being so cohesive together. Right? So we did the doctor's appointments in therapy and we did church. And I'm being honest, it just happened. There is no apparent disconnect.

[00:41:43] There was nowhere that I went wrong, which where I'm at in my loss, where I'm at in my motherhood is almost just as bad as finding out that there was a cause. 

[00:41:55] Chandler Stroud: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:56] Kassy: You know, because you don't know where it went wrong. So you can't do anything to prevent it happening again. And so you live in that fear and in that anxiety, and you just try to keep your head up and that's all you really can do.

[00:42:13] Chandler Stroud: You talked about. Going to church and prayer specifically, and how you thought about kind of the aftermath of that. What role did spirituality play in your journey? Not necessarily even right after losing Amelia, but even growing up, like I'm just, I'm very curious to hear how that served you and guided you in life and then certainly after experiencing the trauma that you endured in this childbirth.

[00:42:46] Kassy: As I said, I was a cradle Catholic. 

[00:42:50] Chandler Stroud: I love that term by the way. 

[00:42:51] Kassy: Born, born and raised in a Catholic church. And so like you go through phases, you know, churches, Ugh, mom, we gotta go again every Sunday. And then it became like, no mom, I'm good. Like you can go, just tell me about it when you come back and. We went back into the church, which is when I took a look around and I said, you know what?

[00:43:20] This isn't aligning to what I feel is right. So I went looking and thankfully because of COVID, I was able to look more thoroughly, which is when I found Lizzie. I, at that point, it became a choice. 

[00:43:40] Lizzie: Hmm. 

[00:43:40] Kassy: It became like, no, we're gonna go every Sunday. We're going to read our Bible. We are doing Bible study and Bible classes, and if I can, we'll do like daily mass.

[00:43:57] And I will say, growing up faith always felt like it was a plan B. When something like bad was happening, that's what you reached out to. 

[00:44:08] Lizzie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:10] Kassy: Now as an adult who made the choice and who keeps making that choice? Right. Through the loss and through Lizzie, it felt like I was reaching for faith because everything was crumbling, and for the first time it felt like faith reached back.

[00:44:31] Like it wasn't just a one way. I was throwing my prayers out, hoping it was no, somebody is there, somebody is listening, somebody is walking this path with me and will be okay. We might not get what we want. Right. At that point, I was praying for my baby to make it out alive for both of us to make it out alive.

[00:44:58] Right. We might not get there, but at the very least. Faith was holding my hand. Faith was cradling me in the situation I was in, and I'm very thankful that Faith hasn't let go. 

[00:45:21] Chandler Stroud: That's so beautifully said. Thank you for sharing that. And I'm just curious because that is such a pivot in the way that you experienced religion and your faith growing up versus what you found in Lizzie in your COVID search, which you know, I do think, I love hearing about that and how you chose faith, a different kind of faith at that point in your life.

[00:45:48] What made Lizzie feel so different from other spiritual leaders you'd encountered previously? 

[00:45:56] Kassy: She was so breathtakingly fresh. Yeah. And this is probably the part where I'd cry, right? And she was so awestruck. I was awestruck, I was speechless. You, if you grow up the way that I did, you meet people, you meet clergy people of the faith, and they kind of adopted this monotonous tone.

[00:46:25] Like, this is God, this is the way of life. This is what we do. This is why we do things. Stop asking questions. This is, this is the way that we do things. Right? And the Catholic faith is predominantly male, the ones that lead the church. And so it was very cut and dry. It was very, every Sunday, this is what you're expected to do.

[00:46:51] You know, wham, bam, get out. See you next Sunday and meeting Lizzie who brought this larger than life. Pink, beautiful, fresh new set of eyes into something that I thought I had been learning my whole life was insane. I remember the first time that I saw her, it was, it was through Zoom, right? 'cause we we're COVID, right?

[00:47:28] And she finished and Anthony is yeah, wherever you lead me to, I'll go. Right? But like, he won't, right. That's just who he is. I remember we finished, I closed my Zoom and I said, I. Did you listen to that? And he said, he said, yeah, man, you forgot your headphones. I love you 

[00:47:56] Lizzie: Anthony, so much. I know. 

[00:47:59] Kassy: I said, babe, that was, that was beautiful.

[00:48:06] And he said, do you want to drive to Barnes and Noble? And he said, do you wanna go get a Bible? And I said, yes, yes. And Episcopalians have the book of common Prayer. So I said, and the Book of Common Prayer. And he said, okay, let's go. And so we went and I came back and I said, let me read about what she was saying.

[00:48:28] And so I read it and I tuned in after that. It was, it was so new. It was so fresh. It was so vivid. And I think that's what was missing. She made everything click and everything that she was saying was in my heart. Like I didn't have this moment of like, I don't kind of agree with that, but like, it's okay.

[00:48:55] I don't, I don't pick and choose her words, which I think was the biggest, biggest thing in my life because up until then, that's what we were told. 

[00:49:07] Lizzie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:08] Kassy: If you go ask my mom, my mom's like, you just take what he says and filter it out with like, what doesn't like it doesn't pertain to you. And I said, okay, mom.

[00:49:19] Alright. And so like I, I got to that point in my adult life where I said, I'm tired of filtering out messages. That's not how I want to receive. That's not how I want to be. Right. And I went searching and like I said, Lizzie's Church at that time was my. Fourth one. 

[00:49:42] Chandler Stroud: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:43] Kassy: And I stopped searching after that.

[00:49:46] We clicked. I went and I looked for her on Instagram and TikTok, and I said, I need every single thing she says, ingrained in my brain. I need it. 

[00:49:59] Chandler Stroud: Second that, by the way, Jesus. 

[00:50:02] Lizzie: Oh, no pressure. 

[00:50:05] Kassy: I haven't looked back since, baby, it's been five years. You're doing perfect. Oh my God. 

[00:50:12] Chandler Stroud: It keep at it, Lizzie, my goodness.

[00:50:15] Kassy: It was amazing. Yeah. It was everything. It still is everything. 

[00:50:21] Chandler Stroud: I really wanna pull Lizzie in right now, but I have to ask this final question for you, Cassie, because I think it's an important one. How did Lizzie support you without trying to explain or fix what happened? 

[00:50:35] Kassy: She has. An open door policy, an open door heart.

[00:50:41] You can give her everything and she'll just walk with you, and it's the most beautiful thing. I remember when I made the decision to actually start trying for Amelia and I talked to her about it, and we prayed together and then we prayed again when it was positive and in the middle of everything going on, I just threw out my lifeline and she clung to it and I, I put my phone and do not disturb and I just left it on the side.

[00:51:14] Like it just wasn't anything I had the capacity to do. But I would check it. I wouldn't respond, but I would check. And so I'd have her prayers and I'd have her words and I'd have her, and then at the end of it I said, thank you so much. Can you still walk with me as I heal? And so we walked together. And then the same thing with Elizabeth.

[00:51:42] I said, Hey, I think I'm ready to try again. And we prayed and then she was positive, and then she was here, and then we baptized her. I said, here's my baby. And she kept walking me and she still stays walking with me. We're walking together right now with this new baby. And it's the mo, it's the most amazing thing.

[00:52:09] She's the most amazing person. She's definitely a pillar in me in my life.

[00:52:22] Chandler Stroud: That's so beautifully said, Cassie. And I mean, from my perspective, I'm not surprised. Lizzie's incredible, as we all know. Oh, Lizzie, I'm sorry. I know we're making, I'm crying. You're everyone's crying. It's like, why 

[00:52:40] Lizzie: did 

[00:52:40] Chandler Stroud: I 

[00:52:40] Lizzie: put lashes on today? Jesus.

[00:52:46] Oh my God. Ugh. 

[00:52:48] Chandler Stroud: Ugh. I can't, well, I'm gonna ask anyway. Lizzie, I'm pulling you in here. Lizzie. When you first met Cassie, upon further reflection, what was your first impression? What did you sense that she needed most? And this is back, I know before everything happened way back during COVID when she was kind of church shopping at the time, and then found you.

[00:53:17] And I know she got involved with Bible study and a few other things 

[00:53:20] Lizzie: all online too, which I feel like is the wild piece of this. 'cause Brownsville and Austin are not close to each other. 

[00:53:26] Chandler Stroud: Yeah, that's right. I didn't really think about that, 

[00:53:28] Lizzie: but yeah, 

[00:53:28] Chandler Stroud: no, they are not. 

[00:53:31] Lizzie: Yeah. Okay. I wanna answer that question, but I just first, I, I can't answer it without first saying thank you.

[00:53:37] Thank you, you both. And I I give all glory to God. I just am so touched. I'm so touched and and challenged in the best way to, to stay the course by what y'all have said. And when I first met Cassie, it is true then, as it is now. I have always been in awe of you, Cassie. I mean, you are a person of such depth and joy and sacred curiosity and a determinist that is so powerful.

[00:54:11] It can only be from God, and you have such a bright mind and. All those. We did a, a zoom Bible study for well over a year in the pandemic. That was my saving grace and and it was my saving grace because, you know, I was also in pandemic times and having a terrible time like everybody else and, and had spent so long navigating ordination and Christian leadership, and it is not.

[00:54:43] It's been easy, Cassie, when you were talking about like yeah, what your mom said, you know, you hear the things that the priest says or that the church says and you say, okay, yeah, well I'm gonna interpret that and like, I'll take, I'll take what is fruitful. I will be challenged by it. Right? This is not just creating a religion or God in my own image.

[00:54:59] I am allowing this to be transformative. But I also, when they say things like, well, women can't possibly be in leadership, or they say things that are incredibly reductive about autonomy and choice and the realities of the incredibly fragile and complex and wonderful process of bringing life into this world, when they reduce that to something that is so binary and so cruel and cold, well that is, I know it's not of God, so I'm going to keep listening to God within me is something that I had done too.

[00:55:29] And so to have this sweet, precious. Radical resilient Bible study where we could all ask these questions and I could share what felt like had been all these corners of faith, right? Learning about womanist theology, learning about moje theology, learning about feminist theology, these things that are electives in religion degrees instead of being seen as primordial because they weren't written by dead white men.

[00:55:56] Right? Like it was so life-giving and, and so powerful to, to walk this walk And Cassie it. It just remains true that your honesty and your joy, I mean truly, that you have walked through such trauma. You walked through it, you know, and baptizing Elizabeth is one of the best days of my entire life. 

[00:56:25] Chandler Stroud: I love bearing witness to the relationships that my heroes have with these heroines.

[00:56:32] And you two are definitely no exception. I mean, this is such a beautiful friendship that's unfolded and the way it seems you've helped each other in your own faith is just really powerful. And I love that that's coming through in this conversation because God, I, you know, I just, I can't imagine Cassie like this.

[00:56:56] Having Lizzie and your faith, you, you can't get through what you went through without it, I don't think, like, I just, I can't imagine, I can't imagine not having that to draw from and to lean on. Those dark moments that you experienced. And actually, I mean, Lizzie, we've touched on this before, but I'm curious, like what do you wish people understood about having faith after this kind of loss or in the depths of grief?

[00:57:29] Is there anything you'd share? I mean, I, I don't know. It just feels like, and I know there's no right answer to this question, you know, I'll preface that, but I would love to hear your thoughts on this, 

[00:57:41] Lizzie: Cassie, the way that you were talking about faith holding you, this, this God, God, being a container for you.

[00:57:50] What just kept coming to me is you told this story and, and it is different to sit and hear it from start to finish. I, I mean, I lived it with you. I remember. I remember texting you and like when you tell this story, I keep picturing my, my kitchen table in the apartment I lived in at the time because I would just sit there and pray for you and pray that you would make it.

[00:58:19] And the, the image that keeps coming to me is as you were navigating decisions that no mother should ever have to face, is that you too are a child, and you too are your mother's child and your father's child, but you're also God's child. And, and that you were able to see that and see this place, this love, this grace, this mercy in the midst of the most merciless situation to keep holding you.

[00:59:01] I just think is incredible. And, and Chandler to your question, I mean, I wanna be clear, I have walked with people through all kinds of traumas like this, and there are all the whole spectrum of response, everything from totally valid embittered rage that hardens over the years, that follow to this kind of beauty that we see in Cassie.

[00:59:30] And I, I really wanna like, honor that everybody has their own process and their own way. But I think, Cassie, you said it that the hardest thing is trust. And I think that's the hardest thing for everyone. It's the hardest thing for everyone. And, and it's the hardest thing to trust that this horrible thing is not the beginning or the end of your story.

[00:59:54] And it is not where God is going to leave us. And it takes an internal courage to believe that there is more than all the facts lay out, right? Because all the facts say you lost your child in the most horrific way, and with so much evil on the part of the government, on the part of this, not allowing you to have autonomy and choices.

[01:00:26] And I know that many of those physicians grieve that too, right? That they mm-hmm. I know that because I have friends who are doctors who have talked about how impossible and, and painful this is to say, oh, I know I could have provided you antibiotics. I know I could have provided more. I know I could have given you more choices, but I couldn't because of this, because of this wickedness.

[01:00:46] I mean, truly like this is, this is what. I mean when I say sit and death is it's these forces of trying to deny people conversations with God, to discern what is right for them with God and their community and their bodies and their own deep inner sense of wisdom. You have seen the beauty, you have seen the good, you saw the beauty when you held Amelia.

[01:01:09] You see the beauty in how you, you still hold her, you still honor her. You are still her mother and you see the beauty in how you get to be a mother to Elizabeth and to this next beautiful child and and you also still see so much joy and possibility and like to have such grace for that nurse who just put our foot.

[01:01:31] Absolutely. I mean, like it is one of the hardest spiritual lessons, but I think one of the most essential things we can do when we go through. The absolute pit of hell. Instead of turning and saying, well, now I will just be mad at everyone else who is not in hell with me. To instead say, no, no. I can be a bearer of the kingdom of God.

[01:01:53] I can be a bearer of heaven, of lightness, of beauty, of joy, of dignity, of grace because you also know what it is to not want to stay in that pit. Right? Does that make sense? Does this land Because it's also okay if it doesn't, 

[01:02:06] Kassy: it lands. 

[01:02:08] Chandler Stroud: Cassie, for the woman listening who may feel like her body betrayed her in some way, what would you want her to know?

[01:02:14] Kassy: It's hard, and it's okay if right now it feels disconnected. It's okay if you blaming your body gets you through another day. I get it. You, you need a reason. No. You need something to blame that arbitrary thing. In order for you to keep going and move on, but at one point you are going to realize that it wasn't you and it wasn't your body.

[01:02:53] It was just the circumstance. And to take time to get to know your body again, walk with it, love it, nurture it, and it will get better. You will feel one again. It'll just take some time. 

[01:03:14] Chandler Stroud: What has this journey taught you about your own strength and resilience? 

[01:03:20] Kassy: I am stronger than I ever thought I was. I've been a big baby my whole life and it turns out that I can stick around.

[01:03:34] Not just out of spite, I didn't know that I had strength like this or or grace like this. 

[01:03:44] Lizzie: Yeah. 

[01:03:47] Kassy: Because damn, it takes a lot out of you to be graceful when you're in the middle of trauma. 

[01:03:54] Lizzie: Oh yeah. 

[01:03:56] Kassy: And when you're in the middle of everything. I will say that that strength that got me through it is still there.

[01:04:05] It just shows up differently. But that time in my life made me recognize the different parts of me that don't shine as brightly when I'm joyful. And I thank God for that. 

[01:04:23] Lizzie: Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:25] Kassy: Because I don't think I would be as great as a mother. If I hadn't gone through that first. 

[01:04:35] Lizzie: Mm 

[01:04:36] Chandler Stroud: mm 

[01:04:37] Kassy: Wow. 

[01:04:37] Chandler Stroud: Well, from my perspective, you've shown strength and grace in spades today, so I just thank you again for sharing that and reaching out to listeners with those parting words.

[01:04:53] Lizzie, for someone questioning Faith after Trauma, what would you want them to hear today? 

[01:05:01] Lizzie: I'll share two things. The first is something actually that my mom said to me when I went through something really traumatic when I was 12, which was you can yell at God. God can take it. And as I have thought about that, prayed with that, used it in my.

[01:05:23] Own life. And in my professional life over the years, I, I reflect on the depth of what that means. And one is when you go through a trauma, sometimes what, like the worst part is you have to be the grownup, right? Like you have to be the one who's making decisions because a whole system has failed you to give you those choices.

[01:05:44] Or someone in your life has. Died and they were the person who made those decisions or the whole sort of network of the family system is falling apart. Right. This is something I see a lot around funerals and and illnesses is that there's just sort of, it's not just the thing that's obviously the grief, it's the surrounding grief.

[01:06:03] It's not just that someone has died, it's that the whole family system and families be family and, you know, and, and all the ways that that trauma and toxicity and old wounds and regrets and grudges, the way that they all can sort of come and, and, and the, the, the colors like turned up. You know what I mean?

[01:06:21] The volumes turned up. It's just like so heightened. It can be really demoralizing and exhausting to feel like no one's taking care of you. And or to feel like you have to keep it together, right, for the sake of your children or for the sake of your spouse or you know, whoever your, or for yourself, right?

[01:06:44] Like, you just have to keep it together to get through the day. And so I want people to know that God is big enough for us to completely fall apart. Totally lose your shit. Like completely like let God have it right. Especially if there are people who you wish you could say that to, but for choice or circumstance or chance, you cannot.

[01:07:07] God can handle that. And that is not a disrespect of God's holiness. It's actually an awareness of how big and how deep God loves us. It is God loves us with the love of a perfect mother, right? And all of us are moms and all of us know we are not perfect mothers, right? All of us are too acutely aware of how much we fall short of that, and we're all good moms.

[01:07:32] I also wanna be clear about that too, right? 'cause, 'cause don't want perfect to be the enemy of the good, but God is a perfect parent who can hear us totally rage and does not have to go take five deep calming breaths before gentle parenting and response, right? Like God doesn't, God, God can can 

[01:07:46] Chandler Stroud: reference.

[01:07:47] Right. 

[01:07:49] Lizzie: Like, like God can hold that and still in the midst of our anger or numbness or grief or confusion, just cradle us and, and draw us even closer. And, and we see that over and over and over. But, but the image that I come to is that, you know, I think so much terrible theology talks about how Jesus died for us.

[01:08:13] And it skips over the fact that Jesus came to live with us, and Jesus came so much to live with us, that even when he was lynched and hung on a cross, he comes back wounded, but alive. He still has those holes in his hands and in his side and in his feet. And he takes Thomas, who is full of doubt and says, baby, I'm gonna put you, I'm gonna put your hand right here where they slashed me so that you know how much I love you.

[01:08:39] That is what I mean by, by the perfect. Motherly love. And the other thing I think with saying God is big enough to, to handle it, to take it God can take our, our anger is, is that it gives us space to lift up what is not our to carry forever. And God will take it from us if, if we let God. And so that's, that's the first thing I would say.

[01:09:05] And I think the second thing I would say is I I wrote this song for my daughter that, it just, it repeats. God is with me at all times. And then we sort of go through, God is with me at all times. But then we'll say, God is with me when I'm sad. And like, you know, she, she actually came out with the lyrics.

[01:09:22] She's like, don't forget proud mommy God is with me when I'm proud. Which

[01:09:29] that you always may always have this like, like, like protect that. I want God to just like encase that in gold so that you never lose this, like, delight and knowledge that God delights in us when we are proud. But I, I've taught her this because she was having such horrible nightmares and I wanted her to know that she can have secure attachment, of course to me, of course to her father to the safety of our home.

[01:09:59] But. God willing, there will come a day when I die and she is still living. And she, I want her to know that when she goes through the pits of hell in her own life, that God is with her at all times. And God never abandons us even when everyone and everything else does. And, and God loves us when we pray for, for a relief that feels like sin.

[01:10:25] You know, I mean, Cassie, I just think about you in that hospital and, and the hearing of her heartbeat. And it's like, I just know God was with you. God was with you. God was with you, and God was with you in the year of not being able to have silence. You know? And, and God is also with us in the silence. And I just want folks to know that perhaps most when we think God has abandoned us, is when God is, is, is cradling us ever closer.

[01:10:56] Chandler Stroud: That was beautiful, Lizzie, thank you for sharing that. And separately, I want you to release that nighttime song. 

[01:11:07] Lizzie: It, it's on YouTube, I'll say, is 

[01:11:10] Chandler Stroud: it? Oh, okay. We're gonna do some sleuthing and link it in the show notes. 

[01:11:14] Lizzie: Yes. A very, a very different modality, but yeah, we've got a, it's called Wonder and Worship.

[01:11:19] It's our a little, a little project. 

[01:11:21] Kassy: Oh, yes. 

[01:11:22] Chandler Stroud: Mm-hmm. Oh, Lizzie, I love that. I love that. 

[01:11:25] Lizzie: Thank you. Thank you. But, but seriously, I just, I, I I don't wanna feel like I'm like inserting an ad or something. It's just genuinely I I wrote that song and put it out there because I thought it would be helpful.

[01:11:37] Chandler Stroud: It is. No, thank you for sharing. I am gonna go searching. And I think this idea that he's always with us is so comforting and clearly I think lifted. Cassie through, from what I can tell, through her journey and her healing. And I just, again, I'm just so grateful to both of you for being here, for being so honest and vulnerable, Cassie, sharing that story.

[01:12:09] I mean, to Lizzie's point, I mean she lived through it and you and I spoke before this call, but hearing you speak, it was incredibly moving, so emotional, and I'm just, I'm just so grateful that you are strong enough, brave enough, and resilient enough to share that with others who might need to hear it. So thank you.

[01:12:41] Really thank you from the bottom of my heart for being here and showing such grace today. 

[01:12:48] Kassy: Thank you for having me. 

[01:12:52] Chandler Stroud: Anytime. It's truly been an honor and such a joy speaking with you and witnessing your friendship with Lizzie. Lizzie, thank you. You're such a light, I always say that, but I just am so grateful to know you and keep, please keep doing the work.

[01:13:12] I mean, you are, you and Jubilee, and everything you stand for is so important and oh, gosh, so meaningful right now. 

[01:13:19] Lizzie: Thank 

[01:13:20] Chandler Stroud: you. Your words, your beautiful book. I mean, I just keep pouring love into this world. It needs it so much, and I just am thankful every day that I get to be in your orbit. So thank you.

[01:13:32] Kassy: Oh my gosh, y'all. Thank, 

[01:13:34] Lizzie: thank you. I thank you all. Glory truly to God. And I just thank you. Thank you for thank you for, for being. Such beautiful reflections of God's love and liberation. Cassie, when Chandler reached out and said, do you have anyone who you could do this kind of conversation with?

[01:13:52] Honestly, you came to mind immediately. And I, I was like, I wanna sit with this. I wanna pray with this. 'cause I, I feel, I feel very protective of you. I feel very and, and I, I also knew because you had wanted to share your story and, and we had talked about that before. I just knew that, that

[01:14:14] God is, is shining through you and, and this courage and this faith that you have, it is, it is a blessing to me. And this is gonna bless so many. So thank you Chandler for the space. And Cassie, my God, I thank God for you. I really do 

[01:14:31] Chandler Stroud: too. Truly. Thank you both. Finally, if you were moved by today's conversation and I don't know how you couldn't be, please share it with friends and don't forget to subscribe.

[01:14:49] You can also visit healing Heroes podcast.com to get resources, meet the heroes, and share your ideas for future episodes. Thanks for listening, everyone, and until next time, remember, be curious, be courageous, and be kind to yourself. You've got this.