What We Say To Ourselves Matters: Combatting Negative Self-Talk

Have you ever stopped to listen to the way you talk to yourself? Those quiet whispers of self-doubt or harsh criticism can shape your reality in ways you may not even realize. Negative self-talk isn’t just a fleeting thought—it’s a pattern that can erode confidence, fuel stress, and hold you back from living the life you deserve. But here’s the good news: with awareness and the right tools, you can challenge and transform those inner messages. Imagine replacing self-criticism with curiosity, kindness, and self-compassion and turning your inner critic into your greatest advocate. The journey starts with one simple truth—what you say to yourself matters.

In this episode, we talk about what negative self-talk looks like, how it might impact you, and how you can address it in your own life with a returning guest, Jen Baumgold. Jen is a licensed clinical social worker and psychotherapist who specializes in trauma treatment. She is certified in EMDR and works with clients to help untangle the knots of trauma while finding a path toward healing and resilience. After graduating with her master's in social work, Jen began her career at the New York Fire Department counseling service unit, where she worked until 2016. During her time there, she provided crucial mental health support to FDYN members and their families. 

In addition to her private practice, Jen is an active member of the Fair Field Trauma Response team, a volunteer alliance of mental health professionals committed to aiding first responders and the local communities in healing from trauma, tragedy, and stress. 

Tune in!
What You Will Learn:

• [00:01] Intro and a bit about our guest today, Jen Baumgold
• [04:17] What EMDR is and how it works in healing trauma 
• [06:59] Negative self-talk and how it manifests in our daily lives
• [09:40] How negative self-talk starts and is reinforced in our life 
• [15:31] The most prevalent root cause of negative self-talk 
• [17:33] How EMDR addresses negative self-talk and why it’s so effective
• [21:41] Common examples of negative self-talk and how they show up in day-to-day 
• [27:19] Cultivating self-awareness in looking out for your own needs 
• [30:15] How negative self-talk differs from healthy self-reflection or criticism 
• [34:33] How to use curiosity as a tool for kindness and empathy 
• [38:23] Long-term emotional and mental impact of negative self-talk 
• [42:05] Steps to take to challenge and improve your self-talk 
• [43:47] Wrap up and end of the show

Standout Quotes:

• “EMDR allows things to integrate between cognitive and emotional brain so that you start to believe more adaptive message.” [18:41]
• “Our brain in trauma and survival mode don’t have access to the rational brain, so it’s going with messages of survival; when we desensitize, it allows us to connect the true beliefs about ourselves.” [20:39]
• “If we talk to ourselves in a negative, critical, and punitive way, it’s not in the service of self-improvement; it will only induce shame and survival.” [31:18]
• “Curiosity is not survival; when we’re in fight or flight mode, we can’t be curious about ourselves or anybody.” [34:59]

Let’s Connect
Jennifer Baumgold
Website: https://www.lotuspsychotherapyfc.com/jennifer-baumgold-lcsw
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-baumgold-b6ba8077Chandler Stroud
Website: https://healingheroespodcast.com/
Mixing, editing and show notes provided by Next Day Podcast.

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, it's Chandler, and welcome to The Healing Heroes. I promise you. I'm Chandler Stroud, an executive wife and busy mom of two who after years of living with anxiety health struggles and an unshakeable feeling like I should be happier, made a profound discovery that changed everything. Join me on a journey where unexpected paths lead to healing and more happiness. On this show, we will explore unconventional ways to unlock more joy in your own life. Own with the help of my very own healers and trusted advisors, the healing heroes. Hey everyone, thanks for tuning in. I'm so happy you're here because today our hero and psychotherapist, Jen Baum Gold is back. And today we're discussing a topic that impacts nearly everybody in some way, shape or form. To tee this up, research suggests that humans have tens of thousands of thoughts each day, and studies estimate that around 80% of those thoughts are negative.
(01:18)
Yes, today we are unearthing everything you need to know about negative self-talk. A behavior that some psychologists suggest individuals may engage in up to 300 to 400 times per day. What's more is that negative self-talk often manifests in automatic subconscious thought patterns. Just another reason why it can be so dangerous. This was my experience, and I speak to what I learned in the first episode of this show. It's been a year and I'm still digging up new limiting beliefs and instances of negative self-talk that I didn't even know were playing. As a soundtrack in the background of my life, I truly was shocked to uncover some of the things I subconsciously believed about myself. And then I had been reinforcing apparently three to 400 times a day for nearly 40 years without even knowing it. You can start to imagine how that would begin to keep you stuck, creating a ceiling for what you can accomplish, how you engage and interact with loved ones friends, and how you're able to contribute at work to just name a few things.
(02:31)
I often say the key to a happy life can be found in exploring your own self-worth, the beliefs you carry about yourself. So today we're going straight to the heart of the matter, and we'll be dissecting what negative self-talk might look like, how it may be impacting you, and what you can do to address it in your own life. So much to discuss today, but before we get started, let me tell you a little bit more about my friend Jen. She is a clinical social worker and is a psychotherapist specializing in the treatment of trauma. She certified an EMDR and began her career at the New York City Fire Department Counseling service unit. During her time there, she provided crucial mental health support to FDNY members and their families. In addition to her private practice, Jen is an active member of the Fairfield County Trauma Response Team, a volunteer alliance of mental health professionals committed to aiding first responders and the local community in healing from trauma, tragedy, and stress. Please join me in welcoming Jen to the show today. So great to have you back. Jen, thank you for being here. Speaker 2 (03:40):

You're very welcome, Chandler. I'm very excited to be back. Speaker 1 (03:44):

Well, we are thrilled to have you. So let's jump right into this very important topic. I think everyone got a solid understanding of what therapy is and it's benefits in our previous conversations together, but I think for me, EMDR has been such an important tool in starting to explore that negative self-talk that was present in my life. So for listeners who might be new to the concept of EMDR, can you just quickly overview what it is and how it works to ground us in today's conversation? Speaker 2 (04:17):

Sure. EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing, but we often just shorthanded as EMDR because that's a lot easier to say. It's a treatment that was developed to treat trauma and it works essentially by inducing eye movements. So if you think about REM sleep and when we're in our REM sleep stage, our eyes move back and forth rapidly, and that's how we process things. So in EMDR, we use something to stimulate that movement in the therapy, which allows us to access trauma in a way that regular talk therapy can't. Traumatic memories get stored differently than our regular everyday memories. They get stuck in our central nervous system and then triggered when similar or experiences that are somehow related happen to us. And EMDR helps to sort adaptively process these memories in a way that it's stored like the rest of our memories, that it goes through the same mechanisms in our brain that going out and having lunch with a friend and having a regular neutral experience or positive experience is stored something that isn't traumatic and EMDR focuses in doing that. We focus on the actual physical memory in terms of the picture of it, how you imagine it in your mind, where you feel it in your body, and the embodiment of it, where it's located in your body and the cognitive belief that goes with that memory. Speaker 1 (05:45):

Super helpful. Thanks for explaining it that way. And I think that is the key, right? The left, right bilateral movement, incorporating the body into the conversation versus just being talk therapy in itself is one of the reasons that it's so powerful. Speaker 2 (06:03):

I like to think of it as both sides of our brains communicating and something is stuck in the right part of your brain, which is the nonverbal emotional part. Trauma often gets stuck there. So this is allowing the left and the right to talk and bringing those two together, integrate something that is both cognitive and emotional. Speaker 1 (06:25):

I love the way you described that. I think that's a really easy way for our listeners to understand how incorporating the concept of EMDR takes regular talk therapy to the next level. Yes. So I think that's really great. Thank you for sharing those thoughts. Let's now turn our attention to negative self-talk, how it's impacting people subconsciously and why it's such an important thing to be aware of. Can you explain what negative self-talk is and how it typically manifests in people's daily lives? Speaker 2 (06:59):

Sure. Negative self-talk is sort of self-explanatory in that it's the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves and how the beliefs that we might hold sometimes that we're aware of, sometimes that we're not aware of and how that subconsciously and sometimes consciously impacts our behaviors, our relationships, our confidence, how we approach the world really. And when those are negative messages, I'm not worthy, I'm stupid, I'll never get this, I don't deserve this. I mean, as you said, tens of thousands of these thoughts that can go through our head in a day. They start to then impact how we act and how we perceive the world. So then the world kind of comes back at us in that way. If we're looking out through a negative lens, you're going to see negative things and there's a confirmation bias in that. So if I believe that I'm not worthy of a promotion, I'm not worthy of getting paid what I deserve, and the underlying message is I'm not worthy, then will subconsciously find evidence to support that I was passed over for a promotion. So clearly I'm not worthy. My boyfriend dumped me so clearly I'm not worthy, my dog doesn't like me, so clearly I'm not worthy. Whatever it could be, and these things kind of pile up and then confirm what our original thesis was. Speaker 1 (08:27):

I can see how that would snowball very, very quickly Speaker 2 (08:30):

Reinforcing a negative loop. Right. Speaker 1 (08:32):

Yeah, I love that. A reinforcing negative loop. I think that's a really good visual and I love that you call out a can be subconscious and it could also be a very conscious practice that you're engaging in. I also loved that the example that you gave demonstrated how someone maybe not feeling worthy because of a call it a conversation with a parent or maybe with a boss suddenly starts to trickle into other areas of their life. Like your dog now doesn't like you, which means you're not worthy. Speaker 2 (09:05):

You perceived rejection everywhere then, right? If you, you're coming from this negative place of I'm not worthy of love, things that are not even related to you will start to be perceived as rejecting you over personalization. Speaker 1 (09:18):

Yes. I think that's such an important point. You internalize this concept and you think it's about you when it has in many cases, nothing to do with you. Most cases, and we'll definitely dive into that a little bit more as we continue the conversation. Where does negative self-talk stem from? Is it rooted in past experiences, societal pressures, or something else in your opinion? Speaker 2 (09:40):

I think it can be all of the above. And again, sort of maybe starts in our early developmental experiences and then can be reinforced as we move through life. I'm a huge fan of the movie Inside Out too. If you haven't, I don't know if you've seen it, Speaker 1 (09:57):

I want to see it. You have to so badly. Speaker 2 (10:00):

Really as a mental health professional, it just hits all the notes and there's a part of it where the character is, she's a teenager, she's 13 and she's away at camp and they show how she's developing her core beliefs and these experiences happen to her, and she comes up with this core belief and it sort of crystallizes in her brain about herself. So I'm a good hockey player, I'm a good friend, I'm a good person. And then these negative experiences start happening as she starts forming these core beliefs around negative experiences. I have to be mean to be popular. I have to be work really, really hard to be good at hockey. And if I'm not good at hockey, then I'm unworthy of anything else and I'm not good in general. They start to generalize. So I thought it's a really great example of how we begin to form these beliefs about ourselves.
(10:55)
And traumatic experiences often get stuck in us in a way that they tend to be more extreme. So they're distorted thinking styles and they're distorted messages about ourselves. So they're not only distorted in the content, but they're also distorted in the sort of nature of them. They're more extreme. I'm bad and not embracing that. Sometimes I might make bad choices, but other times I'm a really good person. It's just more narrow-minded, myopic, I'm bad, I'm unworthy, I am not deserving of love. Whatever it could be that arises from the trauma. And this can be big T or little T traumas, which I think we've kind of touched on a little bit in previous podcasts, but big T traumas often are what we think of when we think of trauma that's a threat to life survival. Things like major car accidents, sexual assault, physical assault, natural disasters, terrorist attacks.
(11:56)
Whereas little t traumas can be something like rejection and feeling left out, feeling unloved, feeling neglected, and the trauma is really about how that person reacts to it and the view of themselves that they form as a result of it. So a lot of little t traumas, I think I was listening to the podcast episode with Katie Wi who was amazing talking about this limiting self beliefs, and she talked about being dropped by a friend group in high school can impact your message about yourself, that you're not worthy of having good friends or you don't deserve to be loved or appreciated and that can travel with you throughout your life. So I think these negative or adverse experiences in this time in our lives when we are fragile, where we're developing adolescence, childhood, and then begin to get reinforced in that sort of selective negative cognitive bias and confirmation bias where we just keep saying, see, I knew I was right. I'm unworthy. I am unlovable. Nobody likes me. Speaker 1 (13:05):

Yeah, that's so hard. But what you're saying resonates so much, especially the point about when it is big T or little t traumas not necessarily a smaller incident, it might be isolated to you do make these blanket generalizations. And I think that's what was really surprising for me is you and I had embarked on our work together was that some of these beliefs were so far reaching, I'm bad, I am dumb. And it's like that's so crazy that one experience can plant that seed, and then over time you keep watering it and watering it until it grows. And suddenly you're seeing that belief in every aspect of your life, not just home and family, but work and friendships and all things. It's really incredible how it can just expand so quickly. Speaker 2 (14:02):

That's a great analogy. Watering it like a seed, it just gets planted and it grows and grows and grows, Speaker 1 (14:09):

And it's frustrating to think that you're the gardener. It's like I just kept doing that to myself over, and I of course give myself grace and that there were experiences and circumstances that I understand why I would feel that way on the other side, but it's really empowering to learn that you can change that narrative if you become aware of it, right? Speaker 2 (14:32):

Think that's what you are, the gardener. So you can choose which seeds to water, and I think that's what we forget. It becomes an automatic subconscious process, but you can choose those seeds. You don't have to water the negative ones. I think realizing that it takes work and it takes time to really identify where they're cropping up, no pun intended, but you Speaker 1 (14:55):

Can, this is a great analogy, let's roll with it, Speaker 2 (14:59):

But you can, and it's very powerful when you realize that you do have that choice. Speaker 1 (15:04):

Yes, yes, it is. And it's all about mindset, right? Yep. To shift your mindset. Okay. I want to take that one a step further because I think that's really, it's a very loaded question, but it was good. Okay, so it can be all three past experiences, societal pressures or something else as you noted. Is there one that in your experience, you've seen to be more prevalent with some of your clients than any others? Is it more about their own past experiences or maybe what they're learning as they grow? Speaker 2 (15:31):

It's a great question, and I think I have somewhat of a bias because I work so much with trauma that it often traces back to early childhood trauma. So I would say in my experience, most of the time that's what it is. And again, it can be something that maybe feels minor in retrospect it shouldn't be a big deal. My friend didn't talk to me for a week in middle school, why would that cause all this distress for me? But in reality, it was a big deal at the time. It represented something for this person at that time and then got reinforced. So I think it varies as to what these experiences are, but overwhelmingly they start in our childhood, adolescence, young adolescents, and then get reinforced. In my experience, I can't speak for other therapists, and again, I am biased in that I come from the trauma perspective. Speaker 1 (16:25):

Yeah, no, that's fair. I mean, I think it's a good note to make, but I would agree. I mean what you're saying had been my experience. I mean, we spent what, seven weeks on a scene that in retrospect, I was like, we don't need to talk about this. It's not a big deal. It kind of sucked at the time, but I highly doubt I'm holding on to anything from this experience with my fifth grade teacher as an example, and eight weeks later we're still talking about this guy. But it's really interesting how these seemingly innocuous events sometimes hold so much more meaning and power over us than we even believe. Speaker 2 (16:59):

And that too, I think it was, can I trust myself? Right? That's another thing that comes up a lot with people who've been through trauma is can I trust myself to make the right decisions to keep myself safe? And oftentimes it was an adult's responsibility to keep us safe, and that's who we didn't trust, but it sort of internalizes as I can't trust myself. So being able to separate that out is important. Speaker 1 (17:24):

So can you walk us through how EMDR therapy specifically addresses negative self-talk? What makes it so effective, particularly for this, Speaker 2 (17:33):

I think I mentioned earlier, but when we do EMDR, we're looking at this memory, this situation, this moment from the picture of it in our mind where we feel it in our body, the emotions that it brings up and the belief about ourselves. So it's really targeting that negative belief that goes along with the trauma. And those beliefs are distorted. They're not real. So often you'll hear, for an example, somebody who has been a victim of sexual assault would say, it's my fault. And they could cognitively understand in their rational brain that it wasn't their fault. Of course it wasn't their fault. Nobody invites sexual assault, rape, anything like that. We all know that I hope as a society, I mean I would think that people who have explored this in therapy would know that, but there's still a sense of feeling that that's not true, that maybe deep down it was their fault or that they can't trust themselves to make decisions or they're not worthy of being protected.
(18:36)
Whatever that negative cognition that goes with the trauma is. And I think in EMDR, it allows things to integrate between that cognitive and that emotional so that you do start to believe that more adaptive cognitive message that a huge negative cognition in trauma is, I am powerless, I'm helpless. And that may have been true or felt true in that situation, but it doesn't mean you're always helpless or you're always powerless. So they may go back into the trauma and find a part of it where they did have power, where they did have control. It may not have been the whole experience, but there was some part of it that they did. And I think it can help to connect that to the rational, to the more emotional right brain side that is the trauma, so that you can feel like it wasn't my fault and not just say that, if that makes sense. Speaker 3 (19:34):

Does Speaker 2 (19:34):

Whenever somebody says to me, well, I know that, but I don't feel it. I think MDR can help with that. Speaker 1 (19:42):

Yes, a thousand percent. I would echo that. I mean, EMDR for me was one effective in becoming aware that some of these beliefs existed in the first place. But beyond that, I definitely think it started and and continues to really help me integrate those two sides of my brain because cognitively, I absolutely know not my fault. I did the best I could in this situation, but to your point, I still felt it in my body, like something was not fully agreeing with the words that were coming out of my mouth. And I think the EMDR has done a lot in helping me start to overturn some of those beliefs and replace them with the right ones. So I've found it to be so effective, and I'm really grateful that something like it exists to unearth a lot of these lies that we tell ourselves. Speaker 2 (20:36):

And again, one more thing about this, that our brains in trauma mode, in survival mode don't have access to that rational brain. So it's just going with messages of survival. It's not complex thought, it's your fault you did this, you got to get out of it, right? It's not taking in all the different factors like something bad's happening, it must be your fault. It's a very primitive sort of set of beliefs. I think it allows us, when we desensitize that it allows us to then connect with the truer belief, the non distorted belief about ourselves that lives in the cognitive part of our brain. Speaker 1 (21:17):

That is really, really important. And as you're talking, I'm thinking I still have some work to do there, so I'll look forward to our next session together. I'm making a note of that. What are some common examples in your experience of negative self-talk that you hear from clients and what are some of the more common ways it shows up in day-to-day life, whether at work or in relationships? Speaker 2 (21:41):

Sure, absolutely. I think a lot of people really come from a place of feeling not good enough, and that's the narrative that runs in the background. And I see that coming out in behaviors like people pleasing, self-sacrificing, overreacting to certain situations over personalizing. We talked about that a little bit earlier, that you see everything as a slight to you or about you and further proof that you're not good enough, difficulty in asserting yourself, establishing boundaries with other people, numbing, turning to external things to fulfill that, to prove that you're good enough. And that can be anything from eating, buying things, substances, anything that sort of numbs out that feeling or kind of tries to fill that up. Speaker 1 (22:29):

That makes a ton of sense. I love the examples you gave at the end, Jen, this is the perfect place to take a quick pause to hear from our sponsors. So let's hold that thought and we will be back in just one minute. Stay tuned. Speaker 3 (22:42):

I Speaker 1 (22:42):

Promise
(22:43)
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Sure. So if we come from a place of this narrative of we're not enough or we're not worthy people pleasing is an easy way to sort of fill that because it involves making others happy and judging yourself based on their emotional reaction. So self-sacrificing, having difficulty setting up boundaries in that way. I think we've all been there before and we know that we shouldn't say yes to something, but we do anyway. Underlying that is the fear. That person's going to be mad at us or they're not going to love us or they're going to reject us. And when we come from that place of not being good enough, it's easy to fall into that trap since, well, if we make this person happy, then clearly I'm a good person and I'm good enough and I'm enough in this circumstance. But it's sort of a empty calories, if you will, because it doesn't really fill you up.
(24:56)
It's just, oh, I'm doing this one action and making this one person happy. And we know that we can't control other people's emotions deep in our hearts, but on the surface it fills that need to prove our worthiness to us. So oftentimes we're not even aware that we're doing that. We might be overloading ourselves with too many commitments. We could be your friend asks you to go out on a Friday night and it's really not a great night for you, but you say yes anyway out of fear of letting them down and disappointing them because in the end of the day, they may not want to be with you then. And so really strengthening that message of, I am enough and the people that love me will accept me for who I am. And it doesn't matter about the actions I do or don't do, or I'm not a sum of my achievements. That can be another one too. Overachieving, defining yourself based on your achievements often comes up as something that constantly being productive because we're trying to outrun this notion that we're not good enough. And if we are so productive and we do all the things all the time, then we must be good enough. Speaker 1 (26:01):

That was me for so many years, so many years, constantly trying to be productive, do enough overachieve and define myself by the successes that I was seeing as an outcome of the effort I was putting in. And only recently working with you and Katie and Catherine and all the heroes. I now am really even day to day working on this show, very conscious of operating from a place of inspired action
(26:29)
Doing when I feel like, yeah, it's the right time to post this or doing a third episode today is too much. I'm going to see if I can push it out till Monday, which I think is the awareness is the number one for me. Number one indicator that I was starting to heal, becoming aware of the fact that I was potentially falling back into this pattern of overproducing, overachieving, and really listening to myself again, what do I want? What do I really feel like I need? Am I trying to prove something here or is this just me speaking from a place of I need rest? So I think that to me, that really resonates with me, that particular example, because that's something that I still combat and am trying to grapple with I think all the time. And Speaker 2 (27:19):

I think it's hard because it produces an uncomfortable feeling, letting somebody down, asserting your boundaries. If you say, I'm not going to do this, or ask somebody to do something else that may be inconvenient for them, we get that feeling of uncomfortability. Am I worthy of asking this? Am I worthy of not doing three podcasts in a day and pushing one out and looking out for my own needs? So at first it feels uncomfortable, and that awareness is wonderful, and you notice it, you notice the uncomfortability and then kind of work through it. And it's not immediate gratification because there's still that uncomfortability, but you see the results as you start to water that seed. To go back to your original analogy, Speaker 1 (28:05):

Yes, yes, you do. And you start getting more comfortable with letting people down and hearing yourself a little bit louder each time. And we have a whole episode on the power of No and setting boundaries with Bonnie, the accountability coach. Guys highly, if you're liking this conversation, you should go back and listen to that one. But this is a totally different, I think, perspective and lens on it coming at it from kind of the cognitive standpoint and and the place of those limiting beliefs and negative. So I appreciate what you're saying. I think it's shedding even more light on that previous conversation. Speaker 2 (28:39):

Yeah, I think a good gauge too is when you are asked to do something or when you're doing something to kind of reflect on yourself, is this something that I want to do or is this something I feel like I have to do? Of course there are things that we have to do every day, but sort of that internal compass of why am I doing this, that awareness of it, and really is it about trying to please somebody else? Is it about trying to prove my worthiness or is it what I really want to do? Speaker 1 (29:09):

Yeah, I think that's a really simple practice that people can start dipping their toes in. And I think we say we do that. You hear that all the time in self-care. Ask yourself, do you feel obligated to do this? Ask yourself the reasons why. And I think some people even have trouble really unearthing the true motivation behind their desire to either say yes or no, which is why I love bringing in some of the somatic practices we talk about on the show, because whether it's acupuncture, breath work or anything myofascial release, anything that we talk about, what it teaches you to do is get back into your body so you can kind of feel that yes, no, not just think it. And that's so powerful. You really hear yourself again, Speaker 2 (29:54):

Absolutely noticing where you are in your body when you agree to something. Speaker 1 (30:00):

Yeah, I think that's a very powerful Speaker 2 (30:02):

Practice where you decide to do something or not do something. Speaker 1 (30:04):

And I think for people who are asking themselves the question, I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. How does negative self-talk differ from healthy self-reflection or self-criticism and does it at all Speaker 2 (30:15):

Really good questions? Negative self-talk emanates in our core, right? It becomes from these beliefs of I'm not good enough. I'm bad. It's not constructive. And if you think about the way that we talk to kids, whether you're a teacher or coach or a parent, we know that the most constructive way to talk to kids is a way that they learn from it. It's not to be hypercritical when somebody's screaming at us. And I actually had this conversation with my daughter recently because she can be very hard on herself. And I said, think about when I yell at you, because I do yell sometimes. I know everyone thinks therapists never yell. And I said, you don't really hear what I'm saying. You're not listening. And when we're being yelled at or criticized, we shut down. We go into survival mode. We're not in our prefrontal cortex.
(31:05)
We're not in the part of our brain that is responsible for logic and reason and really higher order complex thinking. We're in the fight or flight mode. So why would we think we're any different when we talk to ourselves? If we talk to ourselves in this negative critical, punitive way, we're not going to listen to ourselves. It's not in the service of self-improvement, it's only going to induce shame. It's only going to induce survival. It's only going to induce further these core beliefs. So I think you can be not self-critical, but self-aware in a balanced way. That's the other thing too. When we have negative, it tends to be distorted. So we said earlier, it's an always or a never. I'm never good enough. I'm always making mistakes. I never pay attention. Nobody loves me. So it's very extreme in nature. So I think if you can have a more balanced approach to self-talk of, okay, you made a mistake and that sucks, and you've also done really well in these areas, so you're not defined by that mistake. People make mistakes, a much more balanced view of it. So you're accountable for things. Hey, I didn't do my homework last night. I can own that. Doesn't mean I'm a horrible person and a bad student. I just didn't do my homework last night and I'm going to try harder today. Speaker 3 (32:30):

So Speaker 2 (32:30):

It's more expansive, I think, to talk to yourself in this way of the way that you would talk to other people the way that you would say, if you really wanted somebody to hear you and hear what you were saying, get your message, you wouldn't scream at them, Chandler, you suck. What's wrong with you? How could you do that? You're so stupid.
(32:49)
You would say, Chandler, I see where you're coming from and I understand that you didn't want to do your homework last night. How can we work? I think that's the other thing too, curiosity, meeting yourself with curiosity. We talk about how curiosity is really a form of empathy too, and it helps people. It draws people out. If you meet someone with curiosity, they're more expansive. They're more likely to respond in a way that's not shut down, that's not in that fight or flight mode. So if it's like, okay, why do you think you're a bad person? Or why are you feeling this way? And you can have these dialogues with yourself, Speaker 1 (33:28):

Yes you can. Speaker 2 (33:28):

Yes. And ask yourself, why is this bothering you right now? Why are you thinking about this so much? What does it mean to you? So coming at an inquisitive way rather than a shaming, damning, angry parent, internalized way, Speaker 1 (33:43):

I think that's such an accessible practice for people to start using in their own lives. If you've never known or learned how to speak to yourself with kindness, then just lean into curiosity. Just ask questions to begin. Why are you feeling this way? What do you think might be causing this kind of reaction? How do you want to feel? I think those questions are, I mean, just a few of the examples, but I think the curiosity and how that can really lead to empathy is such a powerful concept. And we close the show with be curious, be courageous, and be kind to yourself. I mean, it's all the right. Same themes of curiosity can is kindness. Curiosity is kindness, Speaker 2 (34:32):

And curiosity lives in our prefrontal cortex. It is a higher executive function way of thinking. You're not curious if you think about it in very basic terms, if you're running away from a predator, our primitive brain is meant to be in services survival. If you're running away from danger, if you're running away from a predator, you're not going to stop and say, oh, that's a nice flower. I wonder what kind it is that's going to get you killed. So curiosity is not survival. If we're curious, we're not in that survival brain and that survival brain, while it's kept us alive for a really long time, and it's very important and it's kept the human species going is not always adaptive in modern life. And when it gets activated, when we're in fight or flight mode, we can't be curious with ourselves or with anybody. And I think that's how we learn is through being curious, being inquisitive, whether it's with our kids, it's how we teach them or with ourselves. Speaker 1 (35:31):

Well said. I love that. That's a good one. I totally Speaker 2 (35:37):

Agree. We talk about curiosity forever. I love it. Speaker 1 (35:39):

I mean, it is, it's a powerful thing. Curiosity. Speaker 2 (35:42):

It's an important thing to remember, right? It's sort of shorthand of be curious. Speaker 1 (35:49):

That's actually the curiosity too, speaking of fight or flight, because I know so many women out there experience anxiety and panic attacks, and I've often heard that the first thing you should ask yourself is, I mean, first try to take that deep breath and ask yourself, where is this coming from? Or better said, where is this in my body? Where is this? And it just automatically flips that switch into a place of curiosity, which to your point, I think does start to get you out of that fight or flight place and calm your body down. So I love thinking about it with real life applicable situations like that. I mean, as everyone knows, I have experienced anxiety. I have experienced a panic attack. And when I feel like those feelings are starting to rise in my chest, I can pause and take a deep breath and say, what is it about this situation that's making me uncomfortable? Where am I feeling that? Why do I think this is coming up right now? And just the act of getting curious really starts to slow the train on the tracks of the path I was going down prior to that point of reflection. So I really do agree with what you're saying in terms of curiosity being a powerful tool for kindness and empathy and just thinking about your life differently than you might otherwise approach it. Speaker 2 (37:17):

And I think that's such a great example too, because the curiosity about your body takes the focus off of what's wrong. I think the tendency is when someone's in panic or anxiety, something's wrong. What's wrong? Am I okay? And really kind of going inside and saying, where do I feel this in my body is a question you can answer, and it takes you out of that spiral of something's wrong. It's not a yes or no question where I feel this in my body, I feel it in my heart. And then you're already activating that part of your brain. That's curious. Speaker 1 (37:51):

I love that. I think I love this concept because it's so empowering. It's so empowering and makes people feel like they have a tool that they can use when they find themselves in those really difficult situations that I certainly have been in many times before. So I will remember this conversation and channel it when that if and when that happens again, Jen, how can negative self-talk impact someone's mental and emotional wellbeing in the long-term? What about any physical impacts like contributing to stress or other health issues? Speaker 2 (38:24):

Well, if you think about, again, if you had a boss who was highly critical and they were always finding fault in what you did, telling you weren't good enough, telling you that you weren't working up where you should be and never really giving you any kind of positive feedback, and it was constantly negative and extreme negative. We talk about how this negative self-talk is often extreme, always, never, no friends, nobody likes you. You'd be in a pretty miserable work environment and that would cause stress and that would cause anxiety that you couldn't please this person, and that would trickle down into your physical health. So we live with ourselves. Think about that being your internal boss and how that is impacting you. Of course it's going to cause stress. It's going to put you in that fight or flight response more often because you're not living up to someone's expectations.
(39:18)
You're not good enough and you're not, therefore, you are in danger and therefore in a stress response constantly, which we know impacts so many different parts of our physical health, they're tied together. There's no difference between our minds and our bodies. So they feed into each other. And of course, if we're in this highly stressed state of fight or flight, our body is going to feel that and react accordingly, whether it's from fatigue or cardiovascular issues or depletion of the nutrients that we need. We're not taking care of ourselves because we don't feel worthy. It's endless in the way that it could impact us physically and emotionally. Speaker 1 (39:58):

Yeah, I mean, I so believe in that, and I can only imagine what the exhaustive list of health concerns looks like as a result of some of these negative deep held beliefs that people have been walking around with for years and years and years and have on repeat and on loop in their minds, three, 400 times a day all day long. I mean, it's really, you can start to imagine how that would cause physical symptoms, Speaker 2 (40:28):

And I think gastrointestinal ones are a big one as well. The gut keeping all of that in, and oftentimes when people start to heal, they start to feel that gets better too. Those physical Speaker 1 (40:40):

Issues also has been my experience that my digestive and GI issues have begun to heal as I've started doing this work. And then a lot of those physical ailments, I don't want to say have gone away completely, but they're way more manageable than they were previously. I Speaker 2 (40:58):

Think we operate in this fight or flight state. It causes our cortisol, our adrenaline to all rays, and that causes inflammation in our bodies. And we know that. And while those chemicals are necessary again for our survival, we don't need to have them elevated at all times. Speaker 1 (41:15):

You know, who else agrees is hero and acupuncturist, Jacques? Because he often says, you don't just digest your food. You have to digest your life. And I think it's a great way as you think about the impact on your digestion of your stress and your day-to-day beliefs and activities. So we'll just leave it at that. Speaker 2 (41:38):

We digest our thoughts too. Speaker 1 (41:40):

Well, I was including thoughts in life. Your life is everything. But yes, it's your thoughts, it's everything. I mean, it's really a cool way to think about it in some ways. It's not always the functioning organs, it's other stuff. For someone struggling with negative self-talk, what are the first steps to take in challenging those ways of thinking and improving it? Speaker 2 (42:05):

I think first, becoming aware that you are having these conversations with yourself. Sometimes it operates on such a subconscious level or it's like, as you said before, the tape that's sort of running in the background, the background program if you will. So becoming aware of it that you are talking to yourself this way and then think, would I speak to someone else this way? Most of the time, we wouldn't really wouldn't talk to another person if we consciously thought about what we were saying. We wouldn't speak to our loved ones that way. Think about somebody that you do love, a child, your parent, your spouse, your really good friend. Would you talk to them in the way that you're talking to yourself? And then getting curious about it. Why are you talking to yourself this way? What are you hoping to get from it? I think approaching it in a more balanced way.
(42:55)
Oftentimes these thoughts are so polarized or so black and white. There's no room for, like we said before, I'm always bad or I always make mistakes. Do you really always make mistakes? Can you think of some time that you didn't? Can you rebalance that to say, I made a mistake in this situation and I am a good person who doesn't always make mistakes or something like, I may have messed up here, but my intentions were good. So it's not just this totality of negative thinking. And so I think treating yourself with kindness above all else and really trying to get curious with it rather than believing these absolute statements, Speaker 1 (43:38):

I think that's really helpful advice for people to start employing and acting on in their own. So I love that answer. Jen, thank you so much for being here today. I really learned so much from our conversation and can't wait for our next one together. Speaker 2 (43:56):

Thank you, Chandler, a pleasure being here and talking about this with you. Speaker 1 (43:59):

Thanks again for your time and for sharing so much knowledge and expertise on this very important topic with our listeners today. And to those tuning in, if you like today's discussion, please share it with friends and don't forget to follow the show. You can also visit healing heroes podcast.com to get resources, meet the heroes, and share your ideas for future episodes. Thanks for listening everyone, and until next time, remember, be curious, be courageous, and be kind to yourself. You've got this.