Spirituality for Emotional Resilience and Cultivating Hope

The holiday season, while often filled with joy and celebration, can also amplify feelings of loneliness, grief, and overwhelm. In those moments, it’s easy to feel as though we’re navigating life’s challenges alone, carrying burdens too heavy to bear. But what if the very struggles we face are opportunities to connect with a deeper source of strength? In this episode, Rev. Lizzie reminds us that through spirituality, we can find a wellspring of resilience and hope. Whether we’re juggling endless to-do lists or grieving a profound loss, Lizzie shares how God’s presence and love offer us the courage to endure, grow, and heal—even in life’s most trying seasons.

Rev. Lizzie McManus Dail has lived all over the world with her boots now rooted in Austin, Texas, where she is living her dream as the founder of Jubilee Episcopal Church. Lizzie is passionate about the evangelism of a God who makes each of us for joy, which is why you might see her doing silly dances and talking about church history on Instagram and TikTok with her 80K followers. 

As a graduate of Mt. Holyoke College, Lizzie brought a passion for intersectional feminism and queer theology to her studies at Duke Divinity School and Seminary of the Southwest. It was her time in both Massachusetts and North Carolina that brought her into the Episcopal church, where she was ordained in 2020. While grateful for her academic formation, she still swears most things she learned about being a priest she learned from 5 plus years of working in the service industry and access to the arts in her public high school.  

Tune in!

What You Will Learn:

• [00:01] Intro and a bit about our guest today, Rev. Lizzie
• [04:53] What spirituality is and how it differs from religion 
• [06:57] How spirituality helps build emotional resilience during challenging times
• [0942] How spiritual communities offer emotional strength and support 
• [16:14] Spiritual practices to build trust and manage difficult emotions
• [28:26] Two Advent practices to cultivate peace and trust this holiday season 
• [34:06] Rev. Lizzie’s upcoming book and its message on emotional resilience
• [43:22] How God calls us to walk and transform us through a refining fire  
• [47:18] What inspired Rev Lizzie to write her book, and how it will support readers 
• [53:48] One key takeaway from Rev Lizzie to apply to your life this holiday season
• [54:56] Wrap up and end of the show

Standout Quotes:

• “To know God is to go deep within ourselves; we have to learn to trust and listen deep within ourselves to hear how God is speaking to us and giving us everything we need to endure.” [07:57]
• “Taking some deliberate quiet time in the hustle and bustle of holiday season can be really significant.” [30:25]
• “You don’t have to do anything to deserve and receive the bigness of God’s love; it’s just given to you.” [54:29]

Resources Mentioned

The Mystics Would Like a Word by Shannon K. Evans: https://www.amazon.com/Mystics-Would-Like-Word-Spirituality/dp/0593727274.

Interior Castle by St. Teresa of Avila: https://www.amazon.com/Interior-Castle-St-Teresa-Avila/dp/1619491001

Let’s Connect

Chandler Stroud

Website: https://healingheroespodcast.com/

Mixing, editing and show notes provided by Next Day Podcast.

Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, it's Chandler and welcome to The Healing Heroes. I promise you, I'm Chandler Stroud, an executive wife and busy mom of two who after years of living with anxiety health struggles and an unshakeable feeling like I should be happier, made a profound discovery that changed everything. Join me on a journey where unexpected paths lead to healing and more happiness. On this show, we will explore unconventional ways to unlock more joy in your own life. With the help of my very own healers and trusted advisors, the healing Heroes. Hi everyone. Thanks for tuning in and I'm so looking forward to today's conversation with Hero and Reverend Lizzie McManus Dale, where we'll be talking about the role of spirituality in building emotional resilience, especially as we head into the holiday season, which we know is a particularly triggering time for many, whether juggling your typical holiday stressors like hosting, family gift buying, and a never ending to-do list or experiencing something more significant like grieving a loss, for instance.
(01:24)
In my experience, the most significant lesson faith has taught me in helping to build up more of that emotional resilience is how to trust again, so much of my life has been spent in a state of hypervigilance and working to control everything and everyone around me as a symptom of being in that fight or flight response 24 7. This feeling that everything is up to me was so prevalent that the idea of learning to let go and trust that God and the universe has a better divine plan for me created what I can only call it a tectonic shift in my fundamental belief system that has aided me in finding those moments of calm and release that I hadn't experienced previously. Now, most times on difficult days, instead of focusing my energy on thinking, why me or how will I get through this? I now find myself asking, what is the lesson that God is trying to teach me in this moment?
(02:30)
What do I need to learn from this experience and trust that whatever I'm going through is somehow in some way happening for me instead of to me? Before Lizzie and I jump into our conversation today, let me do a little refresher on her background. For those that missed our first couple episodes together, she has lived all over the world with her boots now rooted in Austin, Texas where she's living the dream. As the founder of Jubilee Episcopal Church, she is passionate about evangelism for a God who makes each of us for joy, which is why you might see her doing silly dances and talking about church history on Instagram and TikTok with her 90,000 followers. Lizzie is a second generation clergy woman, and she delights in talking about motherhood, pregnancy, and reproductive justice from this lens of faith and leadership in the church and brought a passion for intersectional feminism and queer theology to her studies at Duke Divinity School. Lizzie, I can't thank you enough for joining me today, especially guys at 36 weeks pregnant. She's such a rockstar and I'm so thrilled and honored that you're still here to have this very important conversation with me. So thank you. Speaker 2 (03:47):

Oh my gosh, Chandler always a pleasure and truly I was sharing with her, and I'm fine to share this because when this comes out, this will all be old news that I had my OB appointment yesterday and my doctor was like, yeah, this baby's coming this week. I was like, just lemme get through one more episode, baby. Well, Speaker 1 (04:05):

We are so grateful that baby has let you do this recording. I hope you make it through Sunday service and then just enjoy that time with your family and wishing you all the best and we'll look forward to seeing you again on the other side. Speaker 2 (04:19):

Thank you. Thank you. I feel like this is foreshadowing. I'm delighting in wholly anticipation right now, which we'll be talking about holy anticipation in this episode, so Speaker 1 (04:29):

I love that. I can't wait to get into that part. So before we do get there, Lizzie, just because we definitely have some new listeners joining us today, one thing we talked about to kick off our last few episodes together that I'd love to share with new listeners who missed those conversations, would you mind just quickly offering your perspective on what spirituality is and how you think it differs from religion? Speaker 2 (04:53):

Yeah. The caveat I always offer is I speak obviously from my context as a Christian, as an Episcopal priest, and I just think that's important because other people of other faiths, of other spiritual spirituality, spiritual disciplines, et cetera, would have a different definition. But the one that I bring is spirituality is sort of our expression, our knowledge, our awareness, and even our lack of awareness, just like a deep, intuitive, wild and holy understanding of God. It's something that I think each of us are born with. It's something that I think each of us die with too, is someone who often is standing in the room at the beginning of life and at the end of life, spirituality is somewhat untamed and unpredictable, and I think religion, the gift of it is that at its best is that it offers a structure by which we know like a pattern, a template that we can bring this sort of wildness that we know innately of God to meet God in a structured place and to meet God with other people, and especially as a Christian, especially as an Episcopalian. We are big liturgy people. We're big ritual people. So for us that's things like the Eucharist and baptism and even getting together and singing church hymns or singing your favorite Christmas songs and all of that is an expression of Christian religion, but spirituality, I think at its best flourishes both within ourselves and when we have an established community that kind of helps us not tame that wildness, but know the roots underneath it, if that makes sense. Speaker 1 (06:30):

Beautifully said. No, it does make sense and I really love the way you described that, so thanks for taking a minute to just ground our conversation in that concept before we dive in. But I think now turning to today's topic, I'd love to understand what emotional resilience means to you, Lizzie, and more specifically, how can spirituality or faith help people build resilience during challenging times? Speaker 2 (06:58):

Well, Chandler, I think you've already given us so much of the blueprint for it with your beautiful opening statement about learning to trust yourself. I actually, I was just reading last night, this great new book by my friend Shannon Kay Evans called The Mystics would like a word, and she's talking about all these great ancient medieval women mystics who I think have often been sort of dressed up as this unachievable pure, always perfectly religious, obedient women, and she was talking about Teresa of Avila, and Theresa was actually not that at all. Theresa was a wildly sensual person, and she wrote this great book called The Interior Castle, where she talks about the seven mansions of the soul. This is where it starts to get really woowoo in the best way. Speaker 1 (07:44):

We love woowoo here. Speaker 2 (07:46):

And so what St. Teresa really was getting at was that to know God is to go deep, deep, deep within ourselves, and that doesn't mean that we disconnect from the world in such a way that we don't care about the pain, the suffering, the violence of the world, writ large of our neighbors, of our friends, of our family, but rather in order to both cope with the pain and violence of the world and cope with the pain and violence that we face, that we perhaps have already faced in our processing as adults, that we are enduring as whole communities is to know that God is always within us and that we have to learn to trust not only ourselves, but learn to trust and listen deep within ourselves to hear how God is already speaking to us and already giving us everything that we need to endure, which does not mean that God's like, yeah, I'm going to fix it all. I'm going to make all the pain go away. I'm a nice big anesthetic for the world suffering. No, God is saying, I am with you. I have been with you as you were woven together. I will be with you in your last breaths. I am more intimate and more close to you than anything else, and that is also how you are going to build the emotional resilience to survive because you're not doing it by yourself, you're doing it with God. Speaker 1 (09:09):

Wow, that's really profound. I really have not heard it. I mean we say all the time, you are not alone, and that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of people, but the way you just unpacked that really brought new meaning to that phrase for me, and I really appreciate you doing that. Speaker 2 (09:29):

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Speaker 1 (09:31):

How do you see spiritual communities such as if it's a church, a synagogue or fellowship, even contributing to emotional strength and support during life's hardships? Speaker 2 (09:42):

Well, I feel like I'm sort of a broken record on this and that there's the very pragmatic piece of this and then the sort of spiritual field, the word that we use in the business is theological, which theological you are in the Speaker 1 (09:56):

Biz, Speaker 2 (09:57):

I'm in the biz, I'm in the religion biz. Oh my gosh, you Speaker 1 (10:03):

Could totally, it's Friday at like four 30 guys We're loopy, Speaker 2 (10:07):

Loopy, and I recently learned this is a sidetrack, but that in your third trimester I've been reading this great book about evolutionary biology, which I think surprises people that a priest likes to read about evolutionary biology, but it's called Eve by Kat Bohannon, and she talks about how in the third trimester 30% of your brain stops working to, especially in the short-term memory, this is okay, I'm punching a little bit above my weight with the sciency stuff here, but because it's protecting you from remembering how bad, Speaker 1 (10:35):

Oh, I have heard that. I just had never heard numbers attached. That's wild. Speaker 2 (10:39):

Wild. So I would need to fact check the exact numbers because third trimester right now, but the point being is that truly my brain is not at full functioning capacity and that's like a literal fact, not a feeling. Speaker 1 (10:53):

Well, we can still have fun and not be at full capacity at four o'clock on a Friday. Speaker 2 (10:59):

Exactly, exactly. Oh my gosh. So in the biz we say theology and theology is just a word that means talk of God or talk about God Theo logos. I think practically what spiritual communities offer are the ways that we be social community to each other, and that's everything from showing up with a meal train as someone who is literally about to have a baby. My church is doing a meal train for me, so that means everything from sending gift cards to get takeout to someone cooking dinner and bringing it by. I've received meal trains personally when I've had losses in my family, I have shown up and cooked for people. It's actually something I do often as a priest. If someone's really going through something, I'm like, can I just make you dinner on Friday or can I send pizza to your house because I just know that it's often on that Friday night edge.
(11:50)
You're like, I just can't think of one more thing. It would just be so great if someone would just take care of this emotional labor for me and this physical labor of food preparation and especially as a Christian, we're all about gathering around the table and breaking bread together, and that's true in other religious traditions too, but there are ways that we practically show up for each other is community. It's not uncommon in churches where I have done funerals for people to say, I didn't know this person who died particularly well, but they're a member of this church, or I knew their wife or their cousin or their sister, and I'm just here to support. That's perfectly appropriate. If you've ever wondered, is it appropriate for me to go to this funeral 99 times out of 100, yes, please go because that is actually a really powerful way to show up as community for the people who are grieving and to say You're not alone. And that's another way that that phrase you're not alone matters is it's not just that God is within us, it's that God has knit us together as a body of people, as a community and says, Hey, show up for each other, show up for each other when you're suffering. So those are both practical, but I think very theological, very spiritual things. I also think ways that spiritual community can help create emotional resiliences by being a place where it's okay to not be okay.
(13:09)
It's a big Speaker 1 (13:09):

One. Speaker 2 (13:10):

Yeah, I think about how most companies in the United States, they don't have any kind of grief leave or bereavement leave or if they do, it's like what? Two days? That's not enough time to even get enough death certificates. Truly, I was a hospice chaplain and at one point part of what I did is I helped walk people through end of life planning and all the things that they would need to have in order for their families to then process legally their death. That's not even talking about the spiritual emotional dimensions of it, just the nightmare of canceling credit cards and auto loans and all that other sort of stuff is huge. It's a huge drain on our emotional, physical, social resources. And so in a culture, in a world where we're expected to show back up to work with our makeup on and our hair done and be like, okay, enough to handle the spreadsheets or whatever it is that you're doing okay, enough to take out the trash.
(14:09)
For me, church is a place where if you just show up and you are sobbing when you walk in the door and you're sobbing when you walk out, it's like, we're going to check in on you because someone should say, Hey, I see that, but it's not a checking in to say, stop doing that. It's like, I'm glad you felt safe enough here to just totally fall apart because God knows that's not permissible necessarily in other places, even if it should be, and even if we should culturally have more care for how fundamentally grief changes us. Speaker 1 (14:38):

So I mean co-sign that in a huge way. I feel like you really hit the nail on the head there. I think it is so reassuring to know that you have a place you can do that and find the right kind of community and support. I know so many people, how many women did I coach when I was an executive around the first thing they would say when they got a bad rating or a bad review or didn't get a promotion, they'd say, I did the worst thing. I cried. I cried at the office. Oh baby. And I'd be like, I've been there. I have cried so many times in an office setting and in fairness I felt that don't do this, don't do this. That conflict internally, that tension of this is not the place. Speaker 2 (15:27):

Keep it Speaker 1 (15:27):

Together. And I think it is such a blessing to have these spaces where it's acceptable and people around you aren't grabbing tissues and telling you to stuff it back down. Speaker 2 (15:40):

Exactly. Speaker 1 (15:42):

We are holding you in this space of grief right now. It's very, very powerful. Very powerful. But I love the examples you gave really that's so helpful and I think beautifully said. I think this conversation is especially relevant given we're now in the thick of the holiday season when emotions like grief and stress can be especially heightened. What are some of the spiritual practices or rituals that are particularly helpful you think in building resilience and managing those difficult emotions? Speaker 2 (16:15):

Yes. Okay, so I think twofold. I guess the place I want to start is one of the delightful paradoxes, tensions, juxtapositions of Christian liturgical life that I experienced as an Episcopalian that is also true in the Catholic church, the Presbyterian church, the Methodist church, lots of different churches. Is that while the world has turned up the volume on Mariah Carey and all I Want for Christmas is you, which is a bop that this is not a read, that's a bop. I love that song, right? Starting like Thanksgiving week or if you're me, like November 1st, we actually enter into a different season and this season is called Advent, and advent is a season of holy paw and holy anticipation, and there's lots of different ways that advent is observed. I'm actually wearing my, I love these. These are polymer clay earrings I got on Etsy that have advent wreaths on them. Beautiful. My Speaker 1 (17:10):

Was these always so appropriately dressed. There's always some sort of element of your fashion selection that really ties to our topic at hand. Speaker 2 (17:18):

I'm just trying to be the Episcopal priest, miss Frizzle, you know what I mean? I'm here for a theme. We love it. And so advent, the reason why I have these wreath earrings on is advent is marked by the four Sundays before Christmas, and if you've ever been in a church that had a big wreath at the front that had three purple candles and one pink candle or sometimes their four red candles, the colors are a little bit interchangeable depending on the tradition. But the point is, is that instead of rushing into Christmas, instead of rushing into this really powerful and revolutionary story, actually by the way of God being born as a squalling baby who needs his diaper changed, who is nourished at his mother's breast, who is born, where there are farm animals living in lowing and existing in the most humble of circumstances.
(18:08)
Before we rush into that sacred story, and certainly before we rush into the secular story of Santa Claus and gifts and wonderful meals, which again, that's not a read, I'm here for that. We pause and the scripture readings on the Sundays in advent are often quite intense. They are often about the end of the world as we know it, which is not actually about the rapture end times wrath of God, but instead that God is doing something new in the birth of Jesus. And there's a theme for each one of these Sundays and the themes are hope, peace, joy, and love. And it is a season that we don't sing Christmas songs yet in church, even as you can be me listening to them on the radio literally as you drive up home. But there's a deep sense of no, we're slowing down to weight and to participate in the holy act of anticipating.
(19:05)
And it can feel kind of ironic like, well, we know what's happening. We know Christmas is coming. It's not a plot twist, it's not a surprise. I mean, it might've been a divine plot twist, the original Christmas surprise. Here's Jesus born as a baby, but it's not. We know December 24th, we're all going to come for Christmas Eve in the sanctuary and we're going to light candles and sing silent night and it's going to be this big beautiful thing. But the reason that we embrace that is one, I think it is an invitation to let what is slow, be delicious and let God unfold in our lives and embrace the waiting with God to help us know how to wait when the waiting is hard in other parts of our life, especially as I'm talking about this feeling advent, I'm 36 weeks pregnant, my doctor's like baby's coming any moment, and I'm like, oh yeah, this is what Advent is. This is advent right here, right now also. Speaker 1 (19:59):

Yeah, totally. You're experiencing it firsthand Speaker 2 (20:03):

And we all do, right? Whether or not we have birth children, we all have, and I think it's especially beautiful to see children because excited for Santa Claus or whatever, but teaching them how to slow down and wait and enjoy that feeling and not just enjoy it, but also learn how to let it be a spiritual discipline is a way that we will endure when we're like, oh, I'm waiting and this sucks. I don't want to be in the valley right now. I want to get to the part of grief where I'm not crying every day in the office. I want to get to the part where my heart doesn't feel like it's made of lead anymore. And Advent teaches us how to endure that one because it teaches us to wait with God for God, which can kind of feel like a mind scramble. But Speaker 1 (20:48):

Yeah, it's confusing. Speaker 2 (20:49):

It's confusing, but it's also like Chandler, you were saying this at the top. It's like, God, you saying that you were slowing down and learning how to trust of like, okay, this isn't happening to me. This is God doing something for me. Another way I think of articulating that as saying, waiting with God for God is like, okay, I'm waiting with you God, and I'm waiting for you to show me what this is for or to bring me through on the other side, or really, I'm just going to scream at you because I'm mad. And that is also a perfectly holy response. Scriptures are full of people being really, really, really angry with God and God saying, yeah, I get it, and I'm still here with you in the same way that I think I see my toddler sometimes just completely losing it. She has to wear shoes or brush her teeth. I hate you. She's not yet said, I hate you. I know that day is coming and it's coming. It will break me into a million little pieces. And as God has done to me a million times, I'll be like, I love you baby, and I'm still here with you. You can feel those big feelings. Speaker 1 (21:56):

Yeah, Speaker 2 (21:57):

Yeah. Speaker 1 (21:58):

It stings the first time and then it comes right off Speaker 2 (22:04):

From your mouth to my ears. I said, Speaker 1 (22:07):

I promise. I promise. They don't know what they're saying. They're just so mad they don't know how to deal with those feelings. But we've all been there, and that resonates after the week I've had with my daughter. I mean, just every morning has been a battle battle, literally. I'm like, let me teach you about the word compromise that came out of my mouth more than five times this week. Speaker 2 (22:31):

I feel you. I feel you. Speaker 1 (22:33):

It's so hard, so hard sometimes. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Just saying that resonates deeply right now. Speaker 2 (22:40):

Yeah, yeah. And so advent is one of those things that it is a season that teaches us how to wait. And it is also a season that teaches us how to trust, calling back to emotional resilience in spiritual practices, being a discipline of trusting ourselves and trusting God at work within ourselves, trusting that image of God, that we are all born with that interior castle, that diving deep into the soul in order to meet God within ourselves and outside of ourselves. Advent is like we're sitting here waiting and waiting and waiting. Do we know how it ends? And in the actual Christmas story, Mary is a deep personal hero of mine, and there's this really popular Christmas song Mary Did, you know, which again, I think can be a bop, even though sometimes I listen to it and I'm like, y'all read Luke chapter one.
(23:38)
She knew the angel comes to visit her. And I talk about this in my upcoming book. It's one of my favorite chapters. The angel comes to visit her and says, Mary, you have found favor with God. And she's confused. She's like, what does this mean? And the angel says, you've been chosen. You have been chosen to carry the Messiah into the world. And the angel does not depart from her until she gives her consent and says, let it be with me according to your word. And then she goes to visit her cousin who's also having this kind of parallel, miraculous pregnancy. And this song just erupts from her where she says, my soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God, my savior. Surely he has looked with favor upon me. His lowly servant from this day on all generations will call me blessed. And she goes on to talk about how this sun that she's bearing into the world, Jesus Christ is going to lift up the lowly and send the rich away empty and give the hungry good things to eat. I mean, she has this complete and total vision of what the kingdom of God is going to look like through this messiah, through this baby that she's carrying and going to have to care for. And so on the one hand, when I hear Mary did you know, I'm like, y'all, she knew, can we please believe women?
(24:57)
But also I love that you went there. I love it. I mean that 1000% every which way, but I also as a mom, I get that love takes risk. We have these babies and someday they will die. That is the guarantee of life is that it ends. And my fervent prayer is that my children outlive me and that they live beautiful full long lives. But that is not a guarantee. And that is also, I know one of the most prescient griefs that people carry in this time of year around fertility, grief, around miscarriage, around child loss, around grieving their parents. I mean, it's just one of the most aching feelings this time of year. And I name that because I know how it can feel so unseen, especially when it's a big story of a woman who's giving birth that can be so triggering.
(26:00)
And there's no world in which Mary knew every single thing that was going to happen, including watching her son die on a cross. There's no way she knew that was coming in that moment of delightful expectation. And I think that what she can teach us when we wait with her in Advent and what Advent can teach us about leaning into trust is like not trust again, that we're going to be anesthetized from the world's pain, not trust that everything is for our good. Not even trust that everything is going to work out, but rather trust that God is going to be present in everything and somehow that matters. And somehow that is going to carry us through probably most, especially when we think we can't take one more step. Speaker 1 (26:42):

Wow. I mean, I don't even have words. I think it's just such a hard thing, and I think you do such a beautiful job of giving these feelings and really difficult emotional conflicts, words, and stories that I hope our listeners find helpful and useful in their own lives. I certainly do, but just wow. I mean, it's hard. It is a difficult time of year, and I think we lose sight of that. And for all the reasons you said and this concept of being patient and waiting and not knowing what's going to happen, but trust in yourself and what you're going through, I think can be somewhat empowering during a time where you may not feel like you've got the reins. So I mean, that's just another way to potentially look at it if it's hard to believe that God has got you, I think that's another way, but that's just beautifully said. Thank you for sharing that. Speaker 2 (27:54):

Oh, thank you. Thank you for asking Speaker 1 (27:56):

And receiving it. Always willing to receive. You are just so full of lessons, and I'm excited to get there to that point in the conversation, because you did mention your new book, and I do have a question, lots of questions about your new book, but before we pivot there, Speaker 2 (28:15):

You got it. You got it. Speaker 1 (28:16):

Are there specific advent practices or reflections that you recommend for people feeling overwhelmed to cultivate that sense of peace and trust this holiday season? Speaker 2 (28:26):

Yeah, so I've got two. So one is you can make your own Advent wreath. And this is something that I love to invite people to do. A lot of churches on the first Sunday in Advent, we'll have a wreath making class party, something after worship. We certainly will at Jubilee, even though I'm going to be on maternity leave when that's happening, they're going to do that. And it's just a wreath with four candles in it, and you light one candle progressively each Sunday. And what I invite people to do, what I did growing up was every night at family dinner or family breakfast or whatever, if you live alone, a time that you have that is quiet and if you don't have one cultivate one, even just for five deliberate minutes that a timer on your phone and say, I'm not going to scroll on Instagram for these five minutes.
(29:14)
I'm just going to sit. And there's a reason that fire is so often used in sacred spaces. It's like a very primal element, but it's stop and pay attention and just light the candle. So you do purple candle the first week, two purple candles, the second week, purple, purple pink, which is my favorite for gte. That's Joy Sunday, that's Juli vte, my church's vte. And then purple, purple, pink, purple for the last Sunday in Advent. And you can do that every night. You can do that every day and just invite some quiet, and if you want prayers to go along with it, I will just pull a little plug that my church Jubilee has produced an advent devotional. We're doing this as a fundraiser, so you can get it on our website or you can sign up. We are going to have a Patreon page to have daily devotionals email to you and written by our parishioners, which is just really special. It feels like a really cool, Speaker 1 (30:03):

That's cool. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'll definitely make sure to sign up. Speaker 2 (30:08):

Please do. Yeah, and I've contributed a couple of staff have contributed a couple, but it's really the voices of the congregation speaking from their experience of how God has given them hope, peace, joy, and love. And I think it's just a really beautiful offering that we've put together. And however you mark that time, I think taking some deliberate quiet time, especially in the hustle and bustle of holiday season, can be really significant. And I also invite people to consider what is one way that you can build anticipation for Christmas? And that can look a lot of different ways. The very traditional Episcopalians amongst us might not put their Christmas tree up till Christmas Eve. They might not listen to Christmas music till Christmas Eve. I got, I'm not a purist, that's not me, Speaker 1 (30:57):

Me neither. Speaker 2 (30:58):

I'm like, but bobbles on everything. But there are ways. So my family, we do matching Christmas jammies that I give them on Advent one. And so we kind of actually space out some of the Christmas present giving, but it's sort of we want to demarcate that we've entered into the season of waiting, and so we kind of enjoy a delicious little anticipatory present before we get to the big thing on Christmas Eve. So sometimes anticipation looks like denial, denying yourself something, and sometimes it looks like saying, oh, but I'm going to enjoy this treat and let it lead me into being all the more excited for what is to come. Like feeling a baby kick and then you get to hold the baby. It's like, yeah, Speaker 1 (31:45):

You're feeling that right now. Speaker 2 (31:46):

Oh my God. Literally, Speaker 1 (31:48):

Literally. But I love that piece of advice and that tip for everyone because they can choose something that feels really exciting and authentic to them, right? It's like whatever gets you excited. And in that state of anticipation, it could be like, I don't know, a gingerbread flavored fancy coffee every Sunday morning after church, whatever. I mean, that's just one example, but I love that people can take that and do with it what fits them and their families. I think that's really, the wheels are spinning. How am I going to do that this December? Speaker 2 (32:23):

And the last little thing I want to offer, which you talking about the gingerbread coffee made me think of this. A lot of churches will do things like an angel tree or my daughter's actually old enough this year that I think we might do some very deliberate act of community. So partnering with someone in the community who already knows the need of people who are unhoused or of people who need financial assistance, food assistance, but partnering up to teach her, I mean, she's two and a half, but I think she's old enough to understand that there are some people who don't have what we are privileged enough to have. And in a season that can be really beautifully extravagant and also excessive, how do we give out of our abundance to others and receive from their abundance? Because always, always giving is an act of receiving too. It's never just to us descending from one high and how can that teach her to more deeply receive the light of Christ who was born in poverty, who was born in the humblest of circumstances. Speaker 1 (33:27):

I'm really glad you mentioned that at the end. Thank you for sharing that. I think. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so you referenced this in our conversation, and I'm so excited to touch on this, but you do have a new book coming out in the early part of next year? I do. Called God Didn't Make Us To Hate Us. Great title. I love everything about this book. I know I've gotten a sneak peek. I'm just such a fan already. Speaker 2 (33:55):

Oh, thank you. Speaker 1 (33:55):

And I'm very excited for the full book to drop in 2025. Can you share how it incorporates or touches on this theme of emotional resilience throughout? Speaker 2 (34:06):

Absolutely. So this is a daily devotional, not out in time for you to use this advent, but you could use it next advent. It will be out in time for Lent. But these devotions are constructed very deliberately on my part, not only to be a voice of an ancient and wild and actually deeply traditional perspective on Christianity. And by traditional, I mean traditional in the sense that the church was founded and led by women and founded and led by marginalized people speaking out against empire and speaking for the radical love and liberation for all people. It is a template that engages this very old practice of Christianity in a way that is, I hope, accessible to any kind of reader. And that invites us into realizing one of, I think the greatest myths, one of the greatest lies perpetuated by my beloved siblings in Christ. So again, this is, it's a critique, but it is a critique that has made intra communally from within the community is that I like to call it billboard Jesus. If you're driving anywhere and you see a billboard that's like, if you die tonight, where will you Speaker 1 (35:16):

Go? Energy. We've all seen those. We've Speaker 2 (35:20):

All seen this. I've been collecting them for a little real that I'm going to drop close to the book coming out because I'm like, this is just so salient, just how much there is this idea, this imagining that God hates us, that God only made us to have this barely contained wrath for us. And I think that seed germinates into all kinds of distrust within ourselves, which leads to not having emotional resilience that leads to fear that when we are struggling, when we don't have emotional resilience, when we're scared, when we're sad, when we're mad that we must be unfaithful inherently or that we're not grieving correctly or that we're not following God faithfully, when in fact God did not make us to hate us. God made us out of God's profligate, extravagant, gorgeous over the top joy because God wanted to, God did not need to make human beings.
(36:14)
God chose to. And that is such a fundamental and simple shift in thinking. But when you shift that tectonic plate to pull on your metaphor from earlier, everything, suddenly it's like clouds part. And also we go deeper into the cloud at the same time, it's like come into the deep mystery. That's a very apathetic thing in Christian theology is like apathetic meaning sort of these two opposites that are held together. We go deep into the mystery of God of like, yeah, we actually can't. God hating us gives us a nice little template for how the world is supposed to work and it's nice and orderly and we get to be in control. And when in fact God's like I just desire to make you, it's like, wait a minute, this world is so big and complicated and full of pain. How do we navigate that? And so that's the entrance into mystery, but also the entrance into, okay, if the original seed, original intention is also the final intention, which is love and joy and companionship and community, how does that rewrite everything? Speaker 1 (37:16):

It's a big question. It's a very big question. Speaker 2 (37:20):

And so I try to not fully answer it, but offer some places to begin answering it over the course of 40 devotions, which you can read for 40 days for 40 weeks. You could read the book in four hours. But there are a couple chapters in particular I just wanted to sort of preview. So one, I do have some chapters about Mary because she's so dear to me. And I have some chapters about how Mary can walk with us in times of great of taking great risk in the name of love and how terrifying that can be. And I also have, let me pull up my notes right here so I have them. Exactly. Speaker 1 (37:58):

This is very timely too, because I was going to ask if there was a chapter in particular that you found especially pertinent to our conversation today. So I love that you went there proactively. Speaker 2 (38:09):

Well, thank you. Okay, so I'll say the two advent chapters are chapter 16, born in dazzling darkness, and chapter 17, mother of God Deth Thrower of Dragons, which yes is a Game of Thrones sort of reference. Speaker 1 (38:25):

Everyone will love that. Speaker 2 (38:26):

Thank you. I thought it was funny. I was like, even if no one else thinks this is clever, I do. Speaker 1 (38:32):

It's very clever. Speaker 2 (38:34):

Thank you, Taylor. But then the two, I think these are two of honestly the heaviest and most serious chapters. They were certainly two of the heaviest for me to write as chapter 30. The cross was a weapon and chapter 33 things we cannot heal. And one of the things that I talk about in the cross was a weapon chapter is as a priest, I have seen some of the most horrific things that people can see. Everything from the ravages of children who were sexually abused and how they're trying to heal in their adulthood. I have borne witness to awful what are often very taboo, hushed, secretive traumas within families. I have borne witness to horrific deaths that were both accidental, accidental and planned. I mean, I have been in the room as witness in so many of the worst moments in people's lives, and it is a great and terrible honor and privilege to stand in those places.
(39:35)
And there was this past year I had been present for some really, really tough things and people I love lives in their lives. When holy week came around, which is when we remember that Jesus was crucified crucifixion. It's a very grizzly image. I think a lot of times people are very off-put by seeing a crucifix, Jesus dying on a cross. And I think it's a little bit overplayed and a little bit overused at times and used as a weapon against people to make them afraid and make them believe. But this year was one of the first years I looked at that and I was like, I get it. I get why Jesus had to die like this because how else could I look at God and say, you know what? This feels like, you know what it feels like to suffer, to suffer beyond usual evil, to suffer beyond the comprehension of, these are things we can kind of wrap our minds around.
(40:27)
I have seen evil, and I think all of us can think of examples in the world of when we have seen evil that's like, how is that possible? How can human beings do that to one another? And when you ask this question about emotional resilience, one of the things that I have needed in my life is to know that it's not that Jesus is asking me to suffer or endure unbearable things or asking people I love or care for or walk with to suffer and endure unbearable things to make us stronger or something. That might be what happens. That might be the consequence. But rather I think God is saying, I see that my beloved children have done this to each other, and I want you to know how much I love you and how much I am suffering with you, suffering with the perpetrators and the victims, which is a whole other layer I still can't wrap my mind around. And so Jesus says, let me show you what my love looks like. And it looks like to crawl deep into that pit with you, which is one of the most loving things we can do. And none of us can be crucified with Jesus or crucified with the people we love whom we are walking with through terrible times. But there is something to that deep, deep, deep solidarity that we can extend to one another. And to me, the fact that God who created us extends that solidarity is transforming, Speaker 1 (41:59):

Yes, I would say it is. That's a very important distinction I think you just made. Because so often in things that we can navigate and cope with, we think, okay, so why would God teach us this lesson? He must be teaching me something to grow or to learn from this in some way, shape, or form, which is what I was saying at the outset of this conversation. But I think you bring new meaning to that because when the grief is really deep and the hurt is really hard, it's impossible in that moment to say, oh, well, I guess I'm learning something positive from this pain. The way you are reframing that is to think about just not being alone in that pain and the sacrifice that God made to be there with us and why he's with us. And I think in some ways that's easier to accept because it's probably hard to think, oh, I just lost this person that I love. What's to learn from that? Why did that need to happen for me to grow? I'd much rather this person be here and be stunted than have that life lesson. So I think it's really powerful to hear you describe what's happening there from the lens of trust and love. Speaker 2 (43:22):

Thank you for offering that Chandler. And what I want to add is that I think both can be true. That there are times where I do think God calls us to walk through a refining fire or a terrible flood in order to change and transform us. I mean, I do think that, and I think that more now that I am a mom in the ways that I talked earlier about my toddler throwing a fit about learning to brush her teeth or whatever. But I remember her learning to walk and I was like, oh my God, in order for her to learn how to walk, she has to learn how to fall. And this sucks. I don't want her to hurt, but she has to learn how gravity works, and she also has to learn that she can get back up again in order to have the courage to take the next step. And that was a whole spiritual moment for me of like, oh, is this what God feels like watching me Speaker 1 (44:10):

Learn Speaker 2 (44:10):

To Speaker 1 (44:10):

Walk? That is a very spiritual interpretation of that moment in every mother's life. I think that's really Speaker 2 (44:17):

Cool. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I also think there are things that we go through that are hard, that are painful, that have suffering in them, but they are not necessarily the same thing as this sort deep, unusual, I'm trying to think of a good phrase for this. They're not having a tough job or having a tough season is not the same thing as enduring abuse or enduring a catastrophic unexpected loss or even a very expected loss. I've walked with lots of people when their aged parents who are well into their nineties die, and they're like, why am I so sad? I knew this was coming. And I'm like, well, you've still lost your parent. Even if you had all these years to say goodbye, you've still lost your parent. That's still huge. And so I think about actually an advent text, not this year, but last year comes from Matthew chapter three, which is when John the Baptist appears in the desert and he says, John the Baptist is cuckoo for coco puffs in the best way.
(45:18)
I mean, homeboy is wearing camel hair and eating locusts and honey, which incidentally locusts and honey instruments of plague and promise. We can come back to that another time. But he has this great line where he talks about how Jesus is going to separate the wheat from the chaff. And a lot of times this is a text that is used like, oh, if you aren't faithful, you're going to burn because are you the wheat? Are you the chaff? Well, a chaff is a husk. This is not something I grew up with because I didn't grow up on a farm. Most of us didn't, but my mother did. And the chaff is a husk that protects the germinating seed. While it is too vulnerable to be exposed to the elements and that eventually it has to open and fall away in order for that seed to grow.
(46:02)
And I think sometimes we have hard shells, hard casings in our lives that are not the best survival tools, but they are the things we needed to keep surviving. Maybe that was our anger. Maybe that was our bitterness. Maybe that was frankly our depression. It was what kept us going in a weird way. And then eventually there does come a time where I think God very lovingly peels that off of us. And it's painful and it is a process of learning and growth, but that is a separating of wheat from chaff in order for us to grow and to blossom into who we best can be. But I think when we take that and apply that to every kind of traumatic thing in our life, we do so at our peril. Speaker 1 (46:49):

I think that's an important distinction and really cool how you use that analogy coming out of an advent scripture to bring that to life for us. I think that's really just perfect, very appropriate. I have to ask, and I can probably guess based on what you've already shared, but what inspired you to write this book and how do you hope it'll support readers in finding emotional and spiritual strength? Speaker 2 (47:17):

So two things inspired me to write this book, and the first was the people who have asked me to write it, which sounds like a sort of silly kind of cop out answer. But I started making content right after I was ordained a deacon, and then soon to be priest in the Episcopal church in June of 2020, which June of 2020 probably rings the bells in all of our ears of like, wow, what a fun time in the world. No, it was terrible. It was awful. I mean, you want to talk about the deep doldrums of trauma and loss and confrontation and wheat and chaff being separated and also inexplicable loss. I first of all had seen and had experienced firsthand and had experienced the shrapnel of toxic Christian theologies harming people and harming me and being rooted in this theology that this bad theology, this bad take that says God hates everybody, that God is fundamentally wrathful and out to destroy us and out of that fear, we better get our act together and stop wearing miniskirts or whatever.
(48:26)
And I knew that that was not the truth of Jesus Christ who has transformed my life. I knew that was not true of the church in her best expression and life, but I also knew that many, many folks like myself, good progressive Episcopalians, we're just a little too scared to sound too jesusy in public, lest we be confused with those Christians. And the problem is, is when it comes to the public reputation of Christianity, we've lost gang billboard. Christianity has won. And to the point where I as a priest have had conversations with people where they're like, I did not know it was okay for me as a Christian to not just politically believe in reproductive justice, but I can believe that also theologically. And I'm like, yes, yes. There's actually a huge scriptural component of God believing in autonomy and being with us in the most intimate decisions of our lives.
(49:25)
And so I felt this personal urgency to speak a message that was not just a let me tear down toxic theology, because that in and of itself becomes toxic, right? If we're only ever motivated by destruction. But there's this great line in the musical rent, the opposite of war isn't peace, it's creation. And I think about that a lot because it's very theological. I wanted to offer something that was a different vision, but not just a different vision and to thesis, but in its rootedness, in God's love and joy. And also it was 2020. It was terrible. And what were we all doing to help us cope? Well, at least I was dissociating by scrolling on TikTok and watching cute videos of Italian families singing on their balconies or making Right. Exactly. Exactly. Speaker 1 (50:14):

I know exactly what video you're talking Speaker 2 (50:15):

About. Yes. And so I was like, how can I offer my version of that? My version of here's a tiny little dose of hope, a tiny little dose of resilience because I need to borrow yours and you probably need to borrow mine. And so that's when I started making content and then the floodgates open, and people not only were shook that a woman could be a priest, but that a woman could be queer, that could be queer affirming, could be all these things. So I mean, literally millions of questions I started getting many of which I tried to answer in video form, many of which I answer on my own podcast and also with you with my dear friend Mother Laura, but also I was asked over and over and over again, do you have a book? Do you have a devotional specifically? Do you have a prayer tool that you recommend for me to fall back in love with God again or for me to find my faith after fundamentalism or for me to ask these questions and not just be handed cheap answers? Everything happens for a reason. And so I literally very meticulously actually researched. I went back, Chandler and I reread every question I'd ever been asked online,
(51:23)
Every single one. I went through every, Speaker 1 (51:24):

How long did that take you? Speaker 2 (51:25):

A long time. I mean, this was a project, that research part took about a year. I of rereading questions and looking for patterns, looking for what was I being asked over and over and over again. And some of those, I don't hit in this book because there are other great resources out there, but I tried to get to the deeper source of, which is kind of how I came to this. I'm like, all of these questions, they just came to me over and over of like, wow, you really have been told and lied to that God hates you, and so let's pull that husk away, and once we pull that away, what can grow? And so that was sort of the first question that I started to dream about, and I very practically heard most devotionals that exist are, there's some good ones out there.
(52:13)
I mean, make no mistake, but I don't think there's any that are quite like this book that are rooted in a really ancient orthodox liberation theology that is written for anybody to be able to understand. I read a lot of great liberation theology books, but they are my grad school textbooks. And so I would find myself people being like, Hey, can I read books about how women have actually always been in church leadership? And I'm like, yeah, I've got a lot of books on that. But I read them in my graduate school seminars, and you can read them too. I'm not saying you can't, but they aren't exactly the most accessible thing for someone who's working 40 plus hours a week and trying to keep their kids fed. And so I was like, what is something that not only takes that what I have learned in academic spaces, but takes it and offers it devotional prayerfully? Because this is actually, to me, I remember being in grad school and my undergraduate degree is also in religion and reading the Bible and just being like, this is incredible. Why didn't I get this in church? And so I'm trying to offer that. And so it's for everyone and it's also for me, it's also for 18-year-old Lizzie taking her first religion class and being like, where was this when I was learning about purity culture? Speaker 1 (53:29):

I see that, and I feel that, and I'm so excited to dive in. I mean, it really came at the perfect time, the perfect time as I'm trying to understand all of this and teach the youth group and all of that. If there is one key takeaway from your book, Lizzie, that you hope listeners apply to their lives this advent season, what would it be? Speaker 2 (53:48):

I think the biggest thing I want to offer, knowing that the holidays can be wonderful and can be complicated, and we can feel all this pressure to make it the best Christmas ever or make it the best holiday ever for our kids or our families. The thing I want to offer is that we don't have to make it. God does Christmas. Christmas is God entering into the world and extending grace and mercy and love and justice to us for us to receive that. And so whatever that means to you, I hope that you will find moments in this advent season, in this holiday season, this Christmas season, to receive the bigness of God's love, knowing that you don't have to do anything to deserve it. It's just given to you. Speaker 1 (54:37):

That is a beautiful message that I sincerely hope our listeners take to heart because it is so easy to get caught up in the other stuff, the noise, and I think that's such a beautiful way to end today's conversation. Thank you for sharing that sentiment with us. Speaker 2 (54:54):

Thank you. Thank you. Speaker 1 (54:56):

And thank you for being here, Lizzie. I love our conversations. I really could go on all day. I learned so much, and you just always shift my perspective and give me new ways to look at situations and the content we're discussing, and I really am grateful. So thank you. Speaker 2 (55:15):

Oh, thank you, thank you. It's such a joy to be here with you, and I'm just still so glad that Hannah connected us, Speaker 1 (55:23):

Lizzie. Me too. Thank you, Hannah. This is your shout out in our episode. Speaker 2 (55:28):

The best, the best. Speaker 1 (55:30):

And to those tuning in, if you were moved by today's conversation, please share it with friends and don't forget to follow the show. You can also visit healing heroes podcast.com to get resources, meet the heroes, and share your ideas for future episodes. Thanks for listening everyone, and until next time, remember, be curious, be courageous, and be kind to yourself. You've got this.